Bruce Farr Design ruins Beneteau First reputation

[JumbleDuck]

Amazing we have one example of a heavily used possibly poorly repaired boat being lost and the forum concluded that premiums for fin keel boats will rise and resale values fall.

Insurers know where their claims are and price premiums accordingly - just like cars- and I don't see this one off CR incident affecting the market. It is though pandering to some sailors prejudices regarding types of yacht construction.

It may be that Cheeki Rafiki, as a fairly old and very heavily used example of this type of construction, showed where many other boats will be, structurally, in due course. Or perhaps not. It's certainly a possibility, though, and insurers/surveyors would be daft to ignore it.

To go back to the gliding parallel, if a glider undergoes structural failure in flight, very serious investigations take place. It is not unusual for an airworthiness authority like the LBA to buy one and test it to destruction if they think there is a potential problem. If there is a potential problem, an Airworthiness Directive is issued which can be anything from "check at next annual inspection" to "ground immediately and until further notice". It may be that some similar process is needed for modern yacht designs - not because they are bad designs, but because they are pushing materials and structures closer to the limits than used to be the case.

This sort of class check does seem to happen occasionally. As part of the investigation into the Hooligan V capsize and fatality (the keel broke off because the fabricator had changed the design, seriously weakening it) other Max Fun 35's were examined and showed similar problems (Section 1.15, p33, https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/547c7036ed915d4c0d000085/HooliganVReport.pdf). Perhaps that needs to be formalised into a proper recall or Seaworthiness Directive scheme, particularly for commercially used boats.

 

[Sailfree]

It may be that Cheeki Rafiki, as a fairly old and very heavily used example of this type of construction, showed where many other boats will be, structurally, in due course. Or perhaps not. It's certainly a possibility, though, and insurers/surveyors would be daft to ignore it.

.

Insurers will base their premiums on historic claims not speculation on possible claims after scaremongers' insist 1000s of keels are about to drop off!

Surveyors will probably take note of this incident and look very carefully at any they are requested to survey.

I note the various comments regarding flying and agree that it appears well regulated (suicides aside!) but the marine industry is still a mickey mouse industry as I found out when the official dealer deleted factory fit items from my new boat order to get Bob the Builder to fit them at half the cost and half the quality. If we cant get standards for the sale and commissioning of new boats what chance for repairs?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Insurers will base their premiums on historic claims not speculation on possible claims after scaremongers' insist 1000s of keels are about to drop off!

Surveyors will probably take note of this incident and look very carefully at any they are requested to survey.

Of course, in both cases, but I am sure that insurers will be stroking their chins in a thoughtful way over the Cheeki Rafiki report. Historic claims are only part of the evidence they use, and if they see a way to reduce their exposure ("All boats of this type to be lift out of the water and the keel matrix checked ultrasonically after any grounding at more than 2kt", say) I'd expect them to take it. I don't think that thousands of keels are about to fall off, but I do think that this may be the start of a re-evaluation of the valid service lives of highly stressed designs.

I note the various comments regarding flying and agree that it appears well regulated (suicides aside!) but the marine industry is still a mickey mouse industry as I found out when the official dealer deleted factory fit items from my new boat order to get Bob the Builder to fit them at half the cost and half the quality. If we cant get standards for the sale and commissioning of new boats what chance for repairs?

True. However, the big manufacturers who use these construction methods are probably best placed to define rigorous inspection/maintenance/repair regimes. Smaller yards which stick to the slap-it-on-and-hope school of design are probably OK, but if they want to play high-tech too they will need to raise their game.

I found that when I went from sailing to gliding I became far more safety conscious on the boat, and things like a Daily Inspection (DI) of the rigging were quite natural. The gung-ho approach of some parts of the sailing world ... surprises me.

 

[Sailfree]

Of course, in both cases, but I am sure that insurers will be stroking their chins in a thoughtful way over the Cheeki Rafiki report. Historic claims are only part of the evidence they use.



True. However, the big manufacturers who use these construction methods are probably best placed to define rigorous inspection/maintenance/repair regimes. .

I don't think insurers look beyond their return on premiums unless they note a rise in certain types of claims.

You miss my point regarding big manufacturers. They allow their dealers to amend orders to increase the local dealers profit and they don't care hence why should they worry about repairs to old yachts. Their future is dependant on being cost effect on the boat they can sell tomorrow and not worry about those they sold 10yrs ago.

While my boat didn't sink from a badly locally fitted bow thruster it did continuously leak and was only repaired properly by a quality local GRP Co (at my insistence and at the dealers expense) after the Bob the Builder first installation and first repair failed. I had a big falling out with the dealer as I refused to pay the manufacturers listed price for the extras and only paid the local Bob the Builder price once I discovered (and could not change) their intentions.

A few years later my boat picked up a lot of charter work when another charter boat on the fleet nearly sunk due to a faulty retractable bow thruster.

These are problems with new boats from large manufacturers and not repairs to old boats. I reiterate a mickey mouse industry with no standards but fortunately incidents like CR are rare possibly because most owners are fairly clued up and check things themselves.

 

[JumbleDuck]

You miss my point regarding big manufacturers. They allow their dealers to amend orders to increase the local dealers profit and they don't care hence why should they worry about repairs to old yachts. Their future is dependant on being cost effect on the boat they can sell tomorrow and not worry about those they sold 10yrs ago.

They might have to be forced to. Or perhaps they might find they sell fewer boats if they become uninsurable and therefore unsellable at ten years old.

 

[Sailfree]

They might have to be forced to. Or perhaps they might find they sell fewer boats if they become uninsurable and therefore unsellable at ten years old.

As I stated I don't think insurance companies will become involved. How many insurance companies know that your pride and joy was initially a charter boat 10 yrs ago?

I don't agree they will worry about them being unsellable at 10yrs old only if it affected new sales. I think a bit of perspective has been lost in this thread and would remind everyone that the CR incident is a rarity among the 1000's of fin keel production boats sold each year! The CR incident does just enable those with prejudices against AWB's to post though and vent their spleen against the evils of fin keels!!

 

[JumbleDuck]

As I stated I don't think insurance companies will become involved. How many insurance companies know that your pride and joy was initially a charter boat 10 yrs ago?

My pride and joy actually spent here early years ferrying disadvantaged youth to and from across the North Sea. I don't think any insurance company would care about that, or about chartering ten years ago, but I think that as modern hull.matrix designs get older they may get a bit pickier about surveys. I had a fin keel boat myself, and it was fine ... once I had beefed up Westerly's rather humorous idea about fixing the keel on ...

 

[Skylark]

Lots of sensitive noses out of joint in this thread and similar threads on the quality of modern boat construction. In general you get what you pay for.

Or, put another way, a lot of people without the necessary academic and professional qualifications coupled with relevant experience making wild assertions based upon hearsay, anecdote and pure fantasy. The old adage "a little knowledge can be very dangerous" needs to be up-dated to "no knowledge can be potentially libellous"

 

[lw395]

I think glider analogy is a bit stretched, because any glider failing is 99% sure to cause death, whereas a keel failure on an inshore 'round the cans' boat is not.
Had CR started leaking mid Channel, or even on a Fastnet, the outcome would have been unlikely to be tragic.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think glider analogy is a bit stretched, because any glider failing is 99% sure to cause death, whereas a keel failure on an inshore 'round the cans' boat is not.

That is why I suggested that an appropriate response might be to downgrade commercial coding category with age/miles rather than to ban boats from any use. In much the same way (sorry, gliders again) that gliders tend to have usage restrictions placed on them, rather than an outright withdrawal of the CofA.

 

[rotrax]

I assume CR was RCD class A?

Does this need to be altered?

 

[lw395]

I assume CR was RCD class A?

Does this need to be altered?

RCD is about the state the new boat leaves the factory in.

 

[Talulah]

RCD is about the state the new boat leaves the factory in.

RCD Class A is all about stability.
It doesn't reflect all the bits and pieces an owner may add.
Maybe they should have stability ratings for various types of configuration.
i.e. select a number of addons and then a wizard generates the stability rating.
Addons would include: Radar, Radar reflector, In mast furling, Steelwork arch rear of cockpit, Liferaft on deck, dinghy on deck etc.

 

[Resolution]

Or, put another way, a lot of people without the necessary academic and professional qualifications coupled with relevant experience making wild assertions based upon hearsay, anecdote and pure fantasy.

Ouch! Truth can hurt. But this is far more entertaining.

 

[Sailfree]

Or, put another way, a lot of people without the necessary academic and professional qualifications coupled with relevant experience making wild assertions based upon hearsay, anecdote and pure fantasy.

Scuttlebutt would never let the facts get in the way of prejudice. There are 1000s of fin keelboats out there with their keels about to fall off and the manufacturers are not worried and keep making and silly people keep buying them.

Now will you just panic please like the others.

 

[JumbleDuck]

RCD Class A is all about stability.
It doesn't reflect all the bits and pieces an owner may add.
Maybe they should have stability ratings for various types of configuration.
i.e. select a number of addons and then a wizard generates the stability rating.
Addons would include: Radar, Radar reflector, In mast furling, Steelwork arch rear of cockpit, Liferaft on deck, dinghy on deck etc.

You forgot "keel still attached"

Scuttlebutt would never let the facts get in the way of prejudice. There are 1000s of fin keelboats out there with their keels about to fall off and the manufacturers are not worried and keep making and silly people keep buying them.

Now will you just panic please like the others.

Who is panicking? Seriously, has anyone said anything other than that modern structures require careful repair and that hard used boats with a history of hard groundings should perhaps be carefully inspected? I haven't seen anyone saying that thousands of fin keels are about to fall off, which would clearly be an absurd claim.

 

[30boat]

Lined hulls are not a new thing.The Arpege,launched in 67 had a full hull liner but the keelbolts were attached directly to the outer hull.My father's was getting a but creaky after 15 years but it's still going strong at 45 years of age.

 

[Plevier]

I think glider analogy is a bit stretched, because any glider failing is 99% sure to cause death,

Not really true. Unlike light aircraft, it is the rule to carry a parachute in a glider. There are incidents where they get used (much more commonly after mid air collision in competition conditions than unprompted or weather induced structural failure which is extremely rare) and survival rate is high, I suspect as good or better than life raft survival rate.

 

[lw395]

Not really true. Unlike light aircraft, it is the rule to carry a parachute in a glider. There are incidents where they get used (much more commonly after mid air collision in competition conditions than unprompted or weather induced structural failure which is extremely rare) and survival rate is high, I suspect as good or better than life raft survival rate.

Fair comment, there's not enough glider structural failures to even talk about 99% I suppose.
Whereas lots of yachts have structural problems which are significant, but rarely life threatening.

Some of my inlaws used to be big time into paragliding, when one of those fails, it's often messy. And it's entirely made out of stuff that gets broken every weekend on the Solent.

 

[rotrax]

Amazing we have one example of a heavily used possibly poorly repaired boat being lost and the forum concluded that premiums for fin keel boats will rise and resale values fall.

Insurers know where their claims are and price premiums accordingly - just like cars- and I don't see this one off CR incident affecting the market. It is though pandering to some sailors prejudices regarding types of yacht construction.

Keep things in perspective please!

Another misunderstanding. You ask us to keep things in perspective.

You state the forum has concluded that insurance premiums will rise because of thev loss of one heavily used example.

I have just re-read the last 3 pages. I ASKED a question- post #142-will premiums rise.

Another poster suggested they COULD.

Hardly a conclusion...........................