Bruce Farr Design ruins Beneteau First reputation

[HunterWanderer]

Hi Snooks
Thats just my point.
Lots of old Beneteaus hit bottom hard and suffered damage, eg. separating the hull from the matrix of the hull lining. But the hull layup itself and the size of the steel reinforcing of the Finot design was sufficiently strong that the keels didn't fall off.
The Farr designed Firsts structure is too light for actual use and abuse, and Beneteaus reputation is compromised.

 

[rotrax]

Hi Snooks
Thats just my point.
Lots of old Beneteaus hit bottom hard and suffered damage, eg. separating the hull from the matrix of the hull lining. But the hull layup itself and the size of the steel reinforcing of the Finot design was sufficiently strong that the keels didn't fall off.
The Farr designed Firsts structure is too light for actual use and abuse, and Beneteaus reputation is compromised.

I have heard pro Skippers call them " Bendytoys ". I wonder why?

 

[Daydream believer]

I dont think its the standard thats to blame, although it probably is inadequate.
The UK motor manufacturers that failed (Triunph, Austin etc. ) met the standards required but the manufacturers that have succeeded such as VW and BMW is probably because their cars exceeded the required standards and they produced products that survived normal use (and abuse on our roads!) and got a good reputation as a result.

Or perhaps it was because they managed labour relations & quaity control a little better

 

[Elessar]

Hi Snooks
Thats just my point.
Lots of old Beneteaus hit bottom hard and suffered damage, eg. separating the hull from the matrix of the hull lining. But the hull layup itself and the size of the steel reinforcing of the Finot design was sufficiently strong that the keels didn't fall off.
The Farr designed Firsts structure is too light for actual use and abuse, and Beneteaus reputation is compromised.

so silly to quote anecdotal evidence as fact. How many with a separated matrix crossed an ocean? You don't know do you? So stop spouting nonsense.

 

[Elessar]

Or perhaps it was because they managed labour relations & quaity control a little better

the quality control in the benetau was reported as fine. So how is this statement relevant? Have you actually read the report?

 

[rotrax]

the quality control in the benetau was reported as fine. So how is this statement relevant? Have you actually read the report?

Perhaps you have not realised the poster was refering to the British car industry!

 

[AndrewfromFal]

Groupe Finot used to design the First range but were replaced by Bruce Farr and now the design does not allow for typical use such as groundings. It would seem that the bolts are too close together, the thickness of the hull too thin and the keel bolt washers too small.
However did Beneteau allow them to design their boats like this?

Clearly you don't remember Frers designed 435s in the early 80s. One keel went off with a 'bang' at its mooring in Salcombe. It was only a few weeks old at the time, and was one of several such failures in the initial production run.

Also Farr's involvement with Beneteau pre-dates Finot's. If you look at the number of boats each design house has produced and compare the number of known keel failures you'll see you're not only ill informed, but your extrapolations from one incident are incredibly silly.

It beggars belief that someone with such experience as you profess to can makes such bold sweeping statements based on one incident, and a report you either haven't read in any detail, or you just don't understand.

 

[AndrewfromFal]

Tosh!

I know of a Beneteau first 325 (well before Far and Starck got their mitts on the boats), that suffered the inner tray moulding separating from the hull. The boat was drying out against a wall the the interior stayed where it was and the hull started to sag down. Inspection of the leading edge of the keel showed a big dent.

So if any fin keel hits something hard enough it's possible to cause substantial damage to the interior unless the material in the keel deforms on impact or the keel is encapsulated.

Snooks, was it Premier Cru perchance?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Standard contemporary reaction to That Bloody Race report: Those were racing boats, quite unlike mine, so obviously there is a problem.

Standard contemporary response to Cheeki Rafiki report: That was a cruising boat, just like mine, so obviously there is no problem.

 

[FullCircle]

And what about the Jeanneau Sun Odessy 37 (if I recall correctly) that left it keel stuck on a rock in the Scillies. Was that a Buce Farr issue also?

Jaques Faroux, not an in house Jeanneau designer..

My Sun Odyssey 35 is very similar but is a Marc Lombard design

 

[Skylark]

........design does not allow for typical use such as groundings. It would seem that the bolts are too close together, the thickness of the hull too thin and the keel bolt washers too small.

I have a degree in Engineering..........

Are you trying to bring the profession into disrepute?

 

[dom]

Standard contemporary reaction to That Bloody Race report: Those were racing boats, quite unlike mine, so obviously there is a problem.

Standard contemporary response to Cheeki Rafiki report: That was a cruising boat, just like mine, so obviously there is no problem.

Standard contemporary response to an impending housing market correction - "I can't see properties around here falling much, so obviously there's no problem"

A defect in our collective hard-wiring somewhere?

 

[HunterWanderer]

Just imagine you are a YM instructor taking out a group of students on a Farr design First. You have the log book and you find it reports a light grounding.

Has the boat now a questionable reputation? Do you take the students out?

Imagine you are a surveyor advising a new purchaser of a Farr First. How can you advise on the structural integrity of the boat? It is probable that there are no signs of damage but there could be serious structural damage.

The Finot Firsts had a great reputation.

I think the reputation of Farr Firsts has been blown out. Big shame.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Standard contemporary response to an impending housing market correction - "I can't see properties around here falling much, so obviously there's no problem"

"I could still get fifteen grand for my Centaur if I chose to sell it. Those Volvo engines go on for ever."

 

[dom]

Imagine you are a surveyor advising a new purchaser of a Farr First. How can you advise on the structural integrity of the boat? It is probable that there are no signs of damage but there could be serious structural damage.

The client would be paying you to come up with a facts based professional opinion in this matter, not scan a few forums, or talk to a few blokes in the bar! ...you really must remember to press the "think" button before posting! :encouragement:

 

[HunterWanderer]

The facts based professional opinion would have to take the advise from Farr Design that it's not a trivial area structurally. Surveyors are now going to be in a terrible position that undetectable serious damage may have occurred.

I would guess Farr Design wish they had specified a laminate thickness around the keel bolts of twice the thickness and washers twice the size to allow for occasional grounding.

 

[AndrewfromFal]

The facts based professional opinion would have to take the advise from Farr Design that it's not a trivial area structurally. Surveyors are now going to be in a terrible position that undetectable serious damage may have occurred.

I would guess Farr Design wish they had specified a laminate thickness around the keel bolts of twice the thickness and washers twice the size to allow for occasional grounding.

I love the way you seem to think that your experience gives you the ability to second guess the most successful design house of the modern era.

I'm beginning to think you're conducting some sort of spoof, albeit in rather poor taste.

 

[AndrewfromFal]

I would guess Farr Design wish they had specified a laminate thickness around the keel bolts of twice the thickness and washers twice the size to allow for occasional grounding.

Are you sure twice the thickness would be enough? What load cases are you using for your structural calculations? What's your experience of shock loadings and their impact? What would Groupe Finot have done differently ? - I'm sure you have some insights that we'd all benefit from

 

[rotrax]

Are you sure twice the thickness would be enough? What load cases are you using for your structural calculations? What's your experience of shock loadings and their impact? What would Groupe Finot have done differently ? - I'm sure you have some insights that we'd all benefit from

Your comments on this appear to be to rubbish another posters opinion. Farr design could well be concerned. In my view, for anything other than leading edge race boats made from space age materials, the structural integrity should be such that grounding causes no mechanical failures-immediate or at some later time.
It has been said that the perfect race car should fail seconds after it has won the race. A sailboat that can take up to eight people sailing should have large reserves of structural integrity, not fail or require expensive surveying or repairs for what is a not uncommon happening.

I bet Sunsail are worried about the safety-and the resale value-of their fleet of 40.7's.

I said earlier-for safe long term sailing safety-build it like a brick $H1thouse. Plenty of safety margin on the important bits that keep the water out and the boat the dry side up.

IMHO, of course......................

 

[dom]

I bet Sunsail are worried about the safety-and the resale value-of their fleet of 40.7's.

I said earlier-for safe long term sailing safety-build it like a brick $H1thouse. Plenty of safety margin on the important bits that keep the water out and the boat the dry side up.

IMHO, of course......................

Of course. ...you two fact free "engineers" might at least want to be aware that Sunsail's current fleet is a derivative of the Farr 40, not First 40.7. Not that one should ever let facts get in the way of the truth ...poor old Bruce Farr ...and his clients