brokers-who needs them-(print this p.b.o.!)

[blue_anchor]

my first experience with a local broker came when overseas,no sale,fine,back for a summer,no boat..my much loved pandora 23 had gone..calling the broker,had lost paperwork..then,cash flow problems..much heaviness resulted in payment..eventually..tried to buy a westerly,recently,did my research(surprising how many boat buyers dont)amazed at brokers prices,cut through the crap,as it were,and called liona at trafalgar(westerly s/h specialists)and also talked to surveyors..market price not reflecting these asking prices.to rub in further,i tried three brokers,on the same model-westerly warwick..first one,a cold stormy day,no-one around,the broker sat in front of me,poured a fresh coffee,didnt even offer me one..i could have been a buyer for a swan,for all he knew..second broker lost interest after osmosis pre-survey,wouldnt put me in touch with owner,3rd broker doesnt seem to work weekends,when most of us employed are off.and these are national buisnesses,the implications are that younger sailing families wont get on the water,with inflated prices and bad brokers/greedy owners..any couple/small family who wants an honest small cruiser,get in touch..and,possiubly,shame on the rest of us,to believe our abilty to sail gives us exclusivity

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[Becky]

On the other hand, there are undischarged and undisclosed marine mortgages, missing paperwork, and possibly unpaid bills on the privately purchased yacht that do not get picked up. At least by using a broker, especially (mainly?) in the UK, you have the possibility of redress if things go adrift.But don't they charge for all this security?
I am at present researching my choice of yacht that will take me comfortably across the Atlantic and provide adequate accomodation for Caribean cruising with family and friends, and I am getting quite a lot of help from those Brokers I have approached. 'Course they usually assume I know nothing, which really p##sses me off. Much like when I was buying my car on my own. But that is another story.

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[Parsonsheath]

I suppose the answer is that no one has to use them, but until every owner advertises privately, and produces a full specification, background etc., and until every buyer knows every boat on the market, well there is a large place in the market for them.

I came back to the market looking latter part of 2002, did actually talk to Trafalgar, and they were helpful to me, no fault on their part osmosis problems on survey, they discussed it with me and when I decided not to proceed the deposit came back by return.

2nd brokers I approached early 2003 different kettle of fish, found out after survey booked that the boat had already been surveyed on behalf of their company (I was told they had done a part exchange deal with the owner)and fairly adverse, once I mention this they do point out a few of the problems, when I moan they ask me what I expect for the money, answer, what the particulars said!

I did not sue for two reasons, it would have cost far more than the money lost on the survey, they realised they had egg on their face and in the light of the survey returned my deposit without delay. I had come across a damn good surveyor who I used later, he did point out there were other avenues to go down, but life is too short.

3rd brokers (Temple Marine ) left me to chew over their list, I found them helpful and straight to deal with, and I ended up buying a boat I had never heard of, and with which I am very happy . I did offer on the boat subject to survey, the surveyor was the guy I had met on the second deal, the owner had lost interest so took a fair offer.

Brokers are in business to sell, they are human, some do give a better and more informed service than others, but they do have more boats for sale than you will find in the private adds.

The most important guy in the chain? Your surveyor!!! With that advice you will end up paying the right price, and should know exactly what you are getting for your money, so thanks to Hugh Lamb (that find of a surveyor!) for guiding me through, I learnt a good deal, got straight advice, and saved far more than Hugh charged.


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[amadeus]

I bought my boat in October privately from a lovely man of 83 who was reluctantly selling and didn't really want to part with his boat. He wouldnt have used a broker as that would have made the sale more definite I reckon. I used the RYA guide to Buying your first sailing cruiser. This has advice on all the pitfalls and legal issues and even has a draft Bill of sale and contact to use if you wish. I quickly realised that George was a man whose word was his bond. He was slightly offended at my asking for a survey but agreed as I "needed it for insurance" (I did!). We used the yard he wintered the boat at as he was happy for them to lift her out. I asked about unpaid bills and as advised by the RYA book made some enquiries locally. In the end I felt I should trust my judgement that this was a genuine sale and although there were no guarantees, I was getting a good deal as I wasn't paying a third party anything. This approach has risks but for me worked out very well. I think George was pleased in the end to see his beloved boat going to a young family who would love her and give her a new lease of life, and his wife was relieved he no longer had the burden of maintaining her. Right up to the last day he had the keys and kept an eye on her till I was ready to move her to my home port. It was a privilege to buy direct and the use of a broker would have removed that immediacy. I still email him to ask about antifouling and the like. Don't be frightened to do the same as I did, if you like the previous owner and they deal honestly with you.

<hr width=100% size=1>It's more fun than housework!

 

[chippie]

You should invite the old boy to come for a sail with you. Even if he refused it would make his day.

I bought my boat privately and conducted my own survey as it was a fairly low priced vessel. There were a couple of things I missed but they wouldnt have stopped me from buying her.
I would definitely get a professional survey in future though as I would be spending more.

I have also helped a mate purchase a boat from a deceased estate through a broker who gave a level of service to both parties that seemed far in excess of the level of commission he would make.

In talking to a few brokers, it would seem that a lot of people are unrealistic about what they can get for their boat until it has been on the books for a while without much interest being shown. They then get realistic at about the time the boat is ready for another full exterior grooming which they have trouble finding the time to do , and a reluctance to pay for, as they now see the money going out and still no sale.

Often boats are listed with more than one broker, if one broker isnt interested you could try another, they will sort out the commision issues.
In a private sale , make sure you know the vendor's private address as a basic guide to good faith, also if they are members of a club it shows some stability of background. The other safeguards still apply.

I think the best bet at first is to try to sell the boat to someone in your club ,or have an intensive private marketing effort with a brokerage listing after that has not produced results.
Asking members of your club for broker recommendations could be a good idea.

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[blue_anchor]

actually,if you read the post,i found liona at trafalgar very straight,informative,and realistic-so im on the mailing list..i also found a good private seller,but he wouldnt budge,guided by...yes,you guessed it-brokers prices!and so the magic roundabout goes on,with a hell of a lot of boats gathering dust in yards..as a replyee said,people hang on too long,but its in a brokers interest to get the max commissioni.ie price,isnt it...as for legal recourse,well the broker gets a seller to sign a statement..not exactly involving a q.c.,and i wouldnt mind betting thats a nice little loophole to help the broker-not the buyer-get out of trouble.they also dont have massive overheads-its your money they deal with-.im not against brokerage per se..in the high end of the market..ive just found that a little lack of commitment from some has the same effect on me!!i came across one chap who put "under offer" and "sold"on his boards to attract sellers..then took them off later..sales of desperation arent a good thing for either party,really,but neither is a hyped up unrealistic market.i rest my case,milord..funny,no brokers replied-i forgot they dont do weekends(qv)!

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[Joe_Cole]

When I was buying my boat I found the brokers to be even less help than Estate Agents. They didn't know anything about what they were selling, usually didn't return calls, the sale particulars were frequently missleading, etc etc. When I drove 80miles to an appointment to see a boat and the broker didn't turn up I gave up and ended up buying privately.

Joe



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[Guest]

Buying privately

I am always amazed at the caution expressed in some posts where Bills of Sale and Contracts etc. are quoted.
I have bought and sold nearly all my boats privately - same as my father did and haven't had problems. I don't use brokers unless absolutely necessary - finding them only interested in everything except me !!
Private advertisers and mags etc. are a good source of nearly all boats you need.... in the small to medium sizes. It is often the case that a boat is advertised privately as well as on brokers books ...... so ask the seller - ok its not strictly fair to the brokers, but sales can go through without them.

As to RYA guides and Bills of Sale etc. A sensibly listed inventory and single page letter signed by both parties stating clearly the transfer of ownership against moneys paid etc., is more than good enough. Witnessed makes it cast-iron shut. Remember that there is no come-back on a Broker with a second-hand boat etc. - they will wriggle out of all responsibility etc. whatever it may be.

I think a lot of people have had the 'long-stand' ----- waitiung in a boat-yard for the promised key to view a boat and finally walked away disapointed ..... the broker who is late and then has to rush off to another 'client' making you skimp over the viewing, the broker who as soon as he hears that you are not looking for the new boat outside his office sighs and loses interest in anything you may want .... the brokers who literally have only learnt --- put your name on the mailing list and what boat type you are looking for etc.

Yes you mya say that I am not a lover of brokers ......


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
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[Guest]

Undisclosed details ....

Brokers will often require discolsure to them about the boat .... but if seller decides not to disclose - the Broker is not responsilble and you have no redress to the broker. Well anyway - that is my understanding after chats etc. with brokers and looking over sale agreements.
When I buy privately - I always state cleraly in the sale doc. that seller agrees that there be no lien, debt or otherwise against the craft and that seller shall be responsible to ensure that all details are completed prior to sale of craft. There is no rocket science to this - straight logical common sense.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
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[Joe_Cole]

Brokers responsibilities

Out of interest I wonder if anyone knows of an example where a broker has taken responsibility for a cock up on a sale he has handled. We've frequently heard, on this forum, of brokers wriggling out of any responsibilities.

Joe

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[Guest]

Anyone counting ??

I don't think we'd need many fingers ....

<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
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[Martin_e]

Re: Anyone counting ??

I know of a broker very large that is doing everything they can to wrigle out of their considerable financial responsibilities after major cockups. They would seem to use their soliciters to argue a knowingly unreasonable case and hope the poor seller runs out of money or dies before they have to pay. The YBDSA or what ever they are called seem to have no teath or willingness to much for the customer. Police for attempted fraud etc. no go.
Previous advice is good buy and sell private. Apollogies to the good honest brokers who do their job well.

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[Guest]

YBDSA ......

Sorry but they are a self=appointed bunch and NOT independent. You cannot expect a self-regulating non-official body to have any teeth at all ..... It all sounds grand the title - but look deeper and its not worth it.

I agree with your sentiment that its apity for good Brokers etc. that do care - but unfortunately the trade is full of haertache and sorrow that colours the overall market.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
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[ashanta]

Re: Anyone counting ??

If you feel the brokers do not show an interest in the buyer, I can assure you they show less interest in the seller. My experience (4 years ago) when selling an excellent boat with new inboard diesel and excellent inventory was how the broker worked with the buyer to to gain the purchase at the buyers terms and not as a compromised deal. The broker informed the buyer that i had bought another boat and if pushed would accept price that was well below the advertised price.
I commissioned the broker but felt that the broker was happy with any commission they could achieve on a sale which did not reflect the market value of my yacht. Had I been able to move the boat and sell elsewhere I would have done but I was blocked in by the winter storage boats and it would have cost a lot of money.
They are, in the main, after making money. They cannot be seen as anything other than an evil necessity, which should ensure legal transfer.
Regards.

Peter.


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[jonjo]

Re: YBDSA ......

> Sorry but they are a self=appointed bunch and NOT independent.

Here here.

Anyone wealthy enough to consider purchasing a yacht should be smart enough to understand this basic fact of life in a free market economy.

I think the average 17 year old girl purchasing her first car is likely to be more street-wise than some of the wet between the ears cases who complain on this forum.

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[stevebirch2002]

With the Albin Vega club we have a club system where potential buyers are put in touch with owners wishing to sell their Vega. No charges, happy buyers and happy sellers. Mabye the answer is to contact Owner Associations of theboat you are interested in.

<hr width=100% size=1>Albin Vega "Southern Comfort" V1703

 

[Martin_e]

Re: YBDSA ......

I agree with your basic point that one should be street wise.! But wealthy enough to buy a boat! Look at the ads, a large number are for boats well under the price or a used car! My point is that the brokers I refer to have made blunders, lied, are responsible for damage to the boat they were to sell and even now hide behind their solicitors. They are a large out fit and clearly need a permanent legal team. The trade, industry, needs some kind of official control. Otherwise yacht brokers will get the same reputation as used car sellers. International brokers will end up with an even worse reputation.

Who is going to help the people (boat owners, RYA members) that provide these parasites with their pay cheque.? There needs to be some form of control! I do not like that word though.
RYA what are you doing? We know the YBDSA or what ever do little but promote their members, the brokers! On their web site there is in fact no referance to help or standards etc that the boater can refer to regarding brokers.


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[jonjo]

Re: YBDSA ......

> RYA what are you doing?

Sometimes the RYA behaves like a semi official government department but strictly speaking they act for their members so why should they spend time on a national trading standards issue?

> We know the YBDSA or what ever do little but promote their members, the
> brokers! On their web site there is in fact no reference to help or standards

Well we cannot expect to get this on the national political agenda, Westminster politicians will not align themselves with the needs of posh rich yachty types so it is down to us.

I wonder if the Dutch consider the HISWA system to be their intellectual property? If not we could clone an English language version, get it on a web site, then owners and buyers could demand that the process was conducted to HISWA standards?

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[oldharry]

I only once used a broker to sell a boat - never again! I had a trailer sailer to sell, so signed up with a reputable S Coast broker (long since out of business - I wonder why?). I was strongly advised to bring the boat to the Marina he was based at ' to get a quicker sale'. I did so, and business commitments meant I was unable to return for several months. (I was mostly overseas). When I returned, I went to check on the state of play. It took me some time to find my boat, which had no indication it was for sale, and was tucked away right at the back of the boat compound, behind several larger boats. It had been left under a tree, so was covered in green, the hatch was partly open and the rainwater was above the floorboards.

I went top the brokerage office, the broker was out, so I checked through his publicity boards. NO sign of my boat. I then asked the girl if they had any boats of this class on their books. No....!

The broker returned, and did not recognise me. So I again enquired about 'X' class boats. No - he hadnt had one of those for quite a while.

I then asked about 'the one at the back of the yard' . No not for sale, didnt know anything about it, but he could 'contact the owner and get a knockdown price, because its a mess'

I only wish I had had a camera to picture his face when I told him I WAS the owner.....

To add insult to injury the Marina then sent me a large bill for storage - but to give them their due, withdrew it when I told them what had happened.

I took the boat home, cleaned it up and sold it 3 weeks later, privately, with several people intersted as soon as it was advertised.

No - forget brokers as far as I am concerned!

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[kimhollamby]

PBO letters

While the PBO team keep a watching brief on this section if you want to submit a letter for publication you need to do so directly.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/pbo/about.htm>Full contact details here</A>

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