Brokerage dilemma

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peterbotto

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Having been offered a boat by a very nice broker who was not a ybdsa member I was subsequently offered the same boat by a v. large brokerage who essentially I feel more confident to lodge my money with. The very nice broker is now kicking up a big fuss!!! What should I do? Walk away, Go with the larger broker who is a safe bet for my money, Consult a marine solicitor for further advise?
 
Just remember the broker works for the vendor and not for you.
Sad he was silly enough not to become a YBDSA member but thats hardly your fault, is it? I'm sure if he'd bothered to help protect his own clients and his reputation by becoming a member - you'd probably have used him.
His fault - so IMHO you should go with the safer option.
JOHN
 
Morally if he has introduced you as a buyer, he should earn his money. But you would prefer the safety of an ABYA broker. You could ask him to use an ABYA contract, or co-broker with the ABYA broker.

Or scrap the whole thing, solving your moral dilemma, and come and see me, because the 425 we spoke about last year is now available /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I would then wrestle with my own moral dilemma saving you the bother. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]

I would then wrestle with my own moral dilemma saving you the bother. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No honour among thieves then? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
It's really not your problem - provided that the second broker (or the owner) knows that you first saw the boat through a different broker.

The broker's contract is with the owner who is responsible for paying the fees. The only problem would be if neither the second broker nor the owner knew that you had first seen the boat through the first you could be held liable for one set of broker's fees.
 
There have been a number of posts recently about commissioning charges and other contractual arrangement. Best to do some homework and search here on "contract" and "commissioning"

Good luck with it all. Don't forget - subject to survey, and satisfactory paperwork, proof of ownership, free from lien, etc.
 
It's not just a question of morals, it's a question of the law. If the 1st broker finds out thet you have transacted through a broker who was later on the scene the vendor will be liable for extra fees, which may filter down to you. There are plenty of ways to safeguard your money I suggest you be very careful.

Last year I looked at a Dufour on the S Coast and a large broker tried to get me offer through them when they were well informed that I was looking at that boat through another broker. Not just immoral but legally thieving. Just because the broker is big it doesn't imply anything else.

Be careful and just because there is no signed contract you cannot just walk away. Verbal contracts have a lot of standing.
 
Try asking the YBDSA what actual protection you get from using one of their members. It is not a 'bonded' arrangement as with travel agents, just a voluntary agreement to work by certain basic and fairly elementary rules, such as having a separate client bank account.

What you do get from a YBDSA member is a fixed set of commission charges on a 6/8/10% scale (though on a case by case basis many YBDSA brokers will agree different amounts if pressed). Many will also charge 8% "which they call the 'standard' rate for sole brokerage if they can get away with it, rather than the 6% it ought to be.

I am biased - I am a non YBDSA broker, though not the one dealing with you (or not, as the case may now be). The YBDSA broker - if told you first saw the boat via another broker - OUGHT to refer you back to the first broker. If he does not, what does it tell you about his ethics?

Some non-YBDSA brokers, myself included, work at lower commission rates than the YBDSA set charges, giving both buyer and seller a better deal. Personally I am also unhappy with some of the business practices of the YBDSA - there is more than a whiff of 'cosy cartel'.
 
A neat solution to the problem might be to agree an escrow account that you are happy is secure and into which funds can be safely paid with the first broker if you WANT to deal with him. This way your funds are protected and there is no conflict.

That aside, as I see it, you have no contract with any broker, the seller has chosen them, and it is for him to resolve the problem. You are free to deal with whoever you choose and need not get involved with this feeding frenzy over commission!
 
I was an ABYA / YBDSA yacht broker for a number of years and it appears to me that you are about to fall into a very deep black hole, where the boat could be arrested and/or funds arrested with lawyers involved and costs incurred by everyone.

Most contracts between vendors and their brokers (called Listing Agreements) require the vendor to pay the broker his commission if the broker should introduce a potential purchaser who subsequently purchases the boat. So if the vendor sells to you through the second broker after the first broker made the introduction, then the vendor could well have to pay the commission twice. If he does not then the boat could be arrested. Even if the sale has been completed then the boat can still be arrested. So you may well be involved.

Suggestions.
Speak to the owner and confirm that he is aware that he may have to pay the commission twice if sold through the second broker.
Speak to ABYA and ask for their advice.
Do not sign anything nor make any payment until you have completed both the above.
Or walk away from it and find another boat.

If I was buying the boat I would only deal with the first broker, but as suggested above make sure you are signing an RYA or similar document, to purchase the vessel subject to survey, that the broker has a clients’ account and that he has third party insurance cover that will cover you should anything go wrong.

Good luck, you may need it, George.
 
No one owes a broker a living. If you feel one has earnt his fee go with him.

Yours aye

JackIron (broken ship broker)
 
I am confused by the expression "to introduce a potential purchaser". What effectively does this mean?

Using the internet I nearly bought a boat which was advertised by 2 brokers. The first broker's website was far better and had all the details and photos I wanted. When it came to arrange a viewing however he couldn't make the weekend I was proposing, so I contacted the other broker whose website was not so good. Now had I decided to go on to purchase the boat, which of the two brokers should I have considered to have "introduced me"?

Marc.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Try asking the YBDSA what actual protection you get from using one of their members. It is not a 'bonded' arrangement as with travel agents, just a voluntary agreement to work by certain basic and fairly elementary rules, such as having a separate client bank account.

What you do get from a YBDSA member is a fixed set of commission charges on a 6/8/10% scale (though on a case by case basis many YBDSA brokers will agree different amounts if pressed). Many will also charge 8% "which they call the 'standard' rate for sole brokerage if they can get away with it, rather than the 6% it ought to be.

I am biased - I am a non YBDSA broker, though not the one dealing with you (or not, as the case may now be). The YBDSA broker - if told you first saw the boat via another broker - OUGHT to refer you back to the first broker. If he does not, what does it tell you about his ethics?

Some non-YBDSA brokers, myself included, work at lower commission rates than the YBDSA set charges, giving both buyer and seller a better deal. Personally I am also unhappy with some of the business practices of the YBDSA - there is more than a whiff of 'cosy cartel'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm what a first post.

I have NO set fees. The current range on my book today starts at well below 6%.

You forgot to mention that we are required to hold professional indemnity insurance to protect all parties. But for clarity here are some excerpts from our buying/selling guide and code of practice.

Buying a boat privately also presents potential pitfalls for the unwary. Does the vendor actually own the boat? Does it comply with current legislation? Our brokers and yacht agents have knowledge of the requirements of the Recreational Craft Directive - the European law that requires boats in the UK to comply with certain safety standards. Selling a non-compliant boat is a criminal offence. A boat coming into the EU will need to prove compliance with the RCD, and VAT or other EU state equivalent will be payable at the first port of entry into the EU

The Yacht Brokers, Designers and Surveyors’ Association was originally set up in 1912, and has steadily enlarged and enhanced its operations since then.

ABYA exists to promote the highest standards of professionalism and expert knowledge in the field of yacht sales, and expects high standards of its members. Membership is only open to existing practising brokers and new boat sales personnel with a proven track record in the industry. For all grades of membership there is rigorous scrutiny of the applicant’s work. A Continuous Professional Development scheme exists to ensure that members update their knowledge regularly, and Members' work is monitored on a regular basis. The Association holds regular training Seminars and Forums in house and maintains close contact with other professionals in the marine industry such as Law firms and Insurance houses, many of whom are "Subscribers" to the Association. All members are required to carry Professional Indemnity insurance.


Full details can be found at http://www.ybdsa.co.uk/index.htm


Now none of us know the ins and outs of this case, the customer has a right to chose which broker he deals with. If I were the broker in this instance I would be looking to do a co-brokerage deal. But we must remember, if no offer has been made the customer really can make his own choice. In fairness to the first broker I do feel he should perhaps be given a finders fee, from the broker who eventually handles the transaction. But I can see no legal obligation if no contracts or verbal offers have been signed or made (By the purchaser).

The listing agreement between the vendor and the brokers will have a clause regarding commission payments and periods of time of enforcement. It is this document that is important here.
 
So if I see the name of the boat on the internet photos, am I allowed to contact the owner of the boat directly (presuming I can track him down) to avoid the broker's fees and agree a lower price, since I haven't technically been introduced by the broker?
 
You can certainly - whether the owner has to pay the broker depends on the nature of his contract with the broker. If it is an exclusive deal then he may have to pay even if he finds the buyer himself.
 
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