Broker problem

gjgm said:
but the query here is that the buyer believed the boat was 2700kg, and the broker offered to find a trailer.IE the buyer anticipated being able to drive it legally with some sort of road car (my assumptions, and I would imagine , the buyer's too)
So, who is at fault, and who might be liable, for the 2700kg assumption being incorrect?
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What we dont know it the make and model of boat, but when the blue flashing light appears in your extended wing mirror and you subsequently pull onto the weighbridge, the excuse that the broker told you it would be OK would not wash, I understand we are talking two different issues here, the law and the sale but they do meet somewhere.

assuming it is a volume produced boat, surely, one would find out the dry weight add a bit for extras and then add the weight of the trailer. Furthermore, what does the boat look like, to weigh over three tonnes without the trailer, there does have to be a bit of common sense here, I bet one look and most would say "no way"
 
I dont think you can expect all buyers to look at a 15-20 year old boat in the water and be able to estimate its weight to within a few hundred kilos.
You'd need more than common sense, surely !!
 
gjgm said:
I dont think you can expect all buyers to look at a 15-20 year old boat in the water and be able to estimate its weight to within a few hundred kilos.
You'd need more than common sense, surely !!
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No you could not expect that, not a few hundred kilos, however, to pull a trailer with a gross weight of 2.7 tonnes at a rough guess of average trailer weight, you need to be able to tell the difference between a boat that has around 1.6 to 1.8 tonnes manufacturers dry weight and the 3.5 tonne boat in question
 
I dont understand where you are getting these numbers.
The main problem is that the buyer,and probably everyone else, believed the boat weight was 2700kg. According to SBS trailers, a trailer with capacity of 2850kg, would have an gross of 3500kg.
So far, then, it would seem no one has anything to worry about.
When the boat is lifted out, the crane driver observes that his crane suggests the boat is actually weighing 3500kg, and so couldnt legally be used on this trailer, and be towed with the landrover.
So, who is at fault? The buyer, for not looking into this enough, or the broker/seller for believing the boat was lighter than subsequently proved to be the case ?
IF.. if.. you know about boats and trailers, then you might well consider that a boat weighing 2700kg is going to be very close to max permissible for towing.Personally, I think it was up to the buyer to have thoroughly checked this if towing was a major consideration to him. How knowledgeable, or ignorant, he was about this topic doesnt exonerate him. Given that a few minutes checking other adverts gives a suggestion that 2700kg could be a correct weight, I think it would be hard to claim the broker misled anyone.
 
Five separate broker ads for Draco 2500's give displacements of:

3300kg
2500kg
2000kg
2500kg
9830kg

I think we can discount the latter as well the 2000kg one. That's an average of 2766kg. That's close enough to the SBS trailer weight to consider ignoring the crane driver and popping it on a weighbridge.
 
Wiggo said:
Five separate broker ads for Draco 2500's give displacements of:

3300kg
2500kg
2000kg
2500kg
9830kg

I think we can discount the latter as well the 2000kg one. That's an average of 2766kg. That's close enough to the SBS trailer weight to consider ignoring the crane driver and popping it on a weighbridge.
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There are different Draco 2500's. That's why I asked the question earlier on about if this boat was the Twin Cab model. Without that info, there is no way of knowing what the boat might realistically weigh. For info there is also a 2500 flybridge and a 2500 sportscruiser.

The Twin cab is listed at 2500kgs in the original brochure, but I suspect that is with twin petrols. It is a very big boat, over 9ft beam, so with twin diesels I would be VERY surprised if this boat could be legally towed behind a 4x4 with max towing weight of 3500kgs.

To give you an idea. my 24ft Bayliner with single diesel weighs around 3000kgs on a trailer. The Draco Twin Cab is bigger in length and width, is almost certainly more heavily built and has another diesel engine and outdrive.
 
Whether the boat + trailer is just the wrong side or the right side of the 3500kg maximum is, imo, a red herring. We don't know so can only guess.

The pertinent point is that it should become obvious to anyone who is thinking responsibly about towing that the boat/trailer package will be close to the maximum. So (as someone else mentioned) the buyer should have undertaken the not-too-difficult task of educating himself about the actual weights/limits/capacities etc rather than relying on (what I'm guessing were) casual responses from the broker, whose primary motivation (it's not too difficult to work out) is to make a sale. Yoiu could describe this as "let the buyer beware". Or simply that in any situation involving the purchase of goods, the only person 'qualified' to do effective "due diligence" is the buyer.

If he couldn't be bothered to do that, then why should the broker (or his client(s)) lose out. It's his omission, not theirs.

This is why, in my first post on this thread, I said I have a little but not very much sympathy with the buyer.
 
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Buyer beware of their own lack of basic homework coming back to bite them in the arse.

As said get the rig to its least weighty state, removing all unnecessary gear / fuel etc. Get it on weighbridge, you'll never know for certain until then what its actual all up weight is.
 
Observer said:
Whether the boat + trailer is just the wrong side or the right side of the 3500kg maximum is, imo, a red herring. We don't know so can only guess.

The pertinent point is that it should become obvious to anyone who is thinking responsibly about towing that the boat/trailer package will be close to the maximum. So (as someone else mentioned) the buyer should have undertaken the not-too-difficult task of educating himself about the actual weights/limits/capacities etc rather than relying on (what I'm guessing were) casual responses from the broker, whose primary motivation (it's not too difficult to work out) is to make a sale. Yoiu could describe this as "let the buyer beware". Or simply that in any situation involving the purchase of goods, the only person 'qualified' to do effective "due diligence" is the buyer.

If he couldn't be bothered to do that, then why should the broker (or his client(s)) lose out. It's his omission, not theirs.

This is why, in my first post on this thread, I said I have a little but not very much sympathy with the buyer.
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Have to agree with that.
 
Just a thought… Of sorts!

Ditch the Landcruiser and buy a Unimog.

Why?

Unimogs are usually registered as Agricultural tractors, which means that road tax is currently free for the year. The use of red diesel in some cases is also applicable, but this is largely dependent on the kind of work you are doing. Unimogs are generally imported from the Continent and can have age related number plates, or can be registered on a "Q" plate.

Generally a Unimog will travel comfortably at around 50-55mph. This will depend on what you are towing and the type of surface you are driving on. Unimogs will usually achieve around 15 miles to the gallon unloaded, but again, this is dependent on what work you are doing.

The larger Unimogs will tow up to approximately 20 tons on a properly balanced trailer. Obviously the towing capacity also largely depends upon the horse power of the Unimog and the vehicle weight.

There you go, problem solved!! Kind of! :)
 
Wiggo said:
Well, if it's 9' in the beam, he's stuffed because ISTR the maximum width you can tow is 8'6". Though doubtless someone will confirm or deny that in a mo...
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The law on width is:

The trailer should be no wider than 7'6" but the load is allowed to overhang by a foot either side, meaning a boat up to 9'6" can be legally towed as long as other factors are also within limits.
 
Will_M said:
Just a thought… Of sorts!

Ditch the Landcruiser and buy a Unimog.

Why?

Unimogs are usually registered as Agricultural tractors, which means that road tax is currently free for the year. The use of red diesel in some cases is also applicable, but this is largely dependent on the kind of work you are doing. Unimogs are generally imported from the Continent and can have age related number plates, or can be registered on a "Q" plate.

Generally a Unimog will travel comfortably at around 50-55mph. This will depend on what you are towing and the type of surface you are driving on. Unimogs will usually achieve around 15 miles to the gallon unloaded, but again, this is dependent on what work you are doing.

The larger Unimogs will tow up to approximately 20 tons on a properly balanced trailer. Obviously the towing capacity also largely depends upon the horse power of the Unimog and the vehicle weight.

There you go, problem solved!! Kind of! :)
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It's a bit more complicated than that. From memory, any trailer over 3500kgs needs air brakes, so while it is possible with the right tow vehicle to pull trailers over 3500kgs, you find yourself in need of a specialist trailer and a different type of licence.
 
fireball said:
Reply to JFM:
Whislt I completely agree with your conclusion that the buyer has no comeback, the general situation leaves the broker free to abuse the position. Whislt the broker is employed by the seller they are usually seen by buyers as professionals - and therefore "responsible*" in their field.
Many ppl use brokers for advice because of their wide ranging knowledge of boats, and if I'd specifically requested a boat to be traillerable and they sold me one that wasn't (which could have been reasonably determined before the transaction) then I'd be pissed off too - both with myself and with the broker for effectively lieing to me.

I believe the broker should, if the traillerable situation cannot be resolved, offer to resell the boat for 0% commission.

* I use responsible as meaning acting in an honest way rather than any legal responsibility.
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Well spotted, despite the illusion of a professional image the bling covered brokers like to portray they are in fact more a kin to 'Arthur Daily ' second hand car salesmen except they dont actually own any stock or assets to sue for anyway.
When times get tough some of them dip into the clients funds and blame everyone else on their failure.

Thats is why we need Trading standards to get involved.

The more cases like this that Trading standards learn about then the closer to a regulated industry we get.

It is not dis similar to the 1980 Mortgage cons that were around, those guys wore 3 piece suits and bling, they would say anything to get a sale and commission. They didnt get away with it , the industry was quickly regulated and compensation paid out to injured parties retrospectively.

Boat brokers may be operating within the law but it doesnt mean it is morally acceptable to rip someone off because they dont understand what they are buying.

He wanted a trailable boat but wasnt sold one, the broker knew he wanted a trailable boat evidenced by ordering a trailer for it.

Thanks jfm for clarifying the legal situation, which only really means regulation is the only way forward with codes of practice and statutory client accounts , where Brokers pay into a central compensation scheme to look after the 'marks'.

Any reputable brokers out there shouldnt feel aggrieved by this post, you know it isnt aimed at you, regulation will just weed out the weakest links and create a stronger industry that can be trusted again.
 
Observer said:
Typical response of the hard of thinking - "there ought to be a law against it".
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Quite. Brokers shouldn't be allowed to sell boats to unqualified people, either. A minimum of a Dazed Kipper must be produced for inflatable beach toys, Coastal Skipper for anything capable of taking an engine and YM Ocean for anything capable of going into water moree than 5 feet deep. The broker should also be required to carry out a full investigation into the buyer's financial background in case anyone buys something they subsequently decide they can't afford.

I intend to sue the now defunct Sealine South Coast for failing to inform me that fuel prices might rise.
 
It always amazes me how many stupid people there are out there with loads of money.

If they can't do a bit of basic research and mathematics, how did they ever manage to earn their cash

A fool and their money....

MVP
 
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