Broadband Radar integration.

[The Folkboat Melody]

Hi Everyone, this is my first post, I've had a quick look for this and haven't found a previous thread so hope someone can help.
I'm rebuilding an old fibreglass folkboat, (Facebook; The Folkboat Melody) with the goal in mind of doing a circumnavigation of Britain next year, one thing I would like is a radar set up,
I've looked at lots of options and, for the sort of space and power available I think a Broadband radar set up is the way to go, I know the range isn't as good as magnetron but my thoughts are that line of sight isn't going to be over the horizon so 15+ miles is probably a practical limit anyway.
I've looked at the new Simrad GO9 XSE chartplotter as an option for display, I'd like something bigger but the budget wont stretch that far. my son, who is a computer programmer wants to use a tablet with a wifi node on the boat but I'm not convinced about the reliability of electronics at sea so I'd rather it was hardwired, hence the plotter.
I wish that I could use a tablet, I've bought most of the iSailor UK charts before this came along and like the layout, be a shame if I can't use them. people I've spoken to reckon that it's not a practical proposition to integrate everything on to a tablet at the present state of the art,
all the blurb for the GO9 seems to say that it can integrate anything on NMEA 2000 with the appropriate sensor, fuel gauge, forward scan sonar, depth and sea bed, probably far more than I'll ever want.
with a decent waterproof tablet at around £700 anyway the 9" GO9 at around £1000 doesn't seem that far off, the drawback being the charts, CNet is included but obviously has to be updated regularly at almost £100 a time.
this is my first time with a chartplotter so I'm in uncharted waters so to speak and wondered if you good people would share your thoughts and experience to help me reach a decision. Thank you.

 

[prv]

Is there a specific question somewhere in there, or do you just want some random undirected chat about chartplotters?

Pete

 

[The Folkboat Melody]

Yes, it does look a bit vague, sorry about that, I'm trying to work out what to use without knowing very much about the subject so a bit blind really.
first off, I know the GO9 is a fairly new unit so wondering if anyone has any experience with that unit, secondly, wondering if anyone has any other ideas/thoughts that I likely haven't even thought of.

Derek

 

[pvb]

One thing to consider is whether there are existing instruments on the boat which you might want to incorporate into your plotter display. If so, are they NMEA2000 compatible? Or might you need to choose a plotter which also has NMEA0183 connectivity?

 

[Neeves]

If money is a major driving force:

Buy the cheapest, smallest chart plotter that will interface with the Broadband unit (possibly a Lowrance unit). Buy the Simrad (Lowrance) wifi unit and then integrate with a tablet. You now have '2' chart plotters - and you can download any, different, charts to the tablet to give you redundancy. I agree with pvb, check the current instruments as they will probably be NMEA0183 - but personally I'd not worry too much about integration if its an extra cost, nothing wrong with standalone instruments.

Your biggest problem will be power, even Broadband uses power (at night, in fog) as does the chartplotter, autopilot and keeping the tablet powered up.

Jonathan

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Another option for you now (also not cheap) is Raymarine's Quantum radar but the same applies to it as to the Simrad - it's better than "traditional" radar but it still costs a comparative fortune, weigh a bit and in the worst place and uses power. Don't worry about range - even the 3G Simrad radar has more than enough range for shipping avoidance and the 4G is effectively as good as an 18" magnetron system. Where the Simrad "broadband" (actually FMCW) system is weaker is in spotting rain and particularly storm cells building but where it's much stronger is in close-range detail - you could just about pick up your mooring buoy on the thing. The Raymarine Quantum is supposed to be nearly as good at short range but better at longer ranges and with weather - I haven't used one so I can't say.

A Folkboat is a very small boat to be having radar on though. Apart from a love of gadgets (a totally 100% solid reason for wanting it of course) what makes you think you should have it? The downsides, aside from power, are weight and windage aloft and possibly sails snagging or chafing unless you mount above the forestay. Frankly I'm wondering if it's something you really need on a limited budget when doing up a Folkboat - there's an awful lot of other things that money could be spent on. Unless you plan on spending time in very busy waters known for fog I'd go with AIS and a Sea-Me active transponder. It's not as good as radar but that and a decent lookout will cover most things in the shipping lanes and nearby them (except the dreaded fishing boats in fog perhaps).

Don't discount a tablet but don't expect to use it from the helm as if it were a plotter, even if it's waterproof. A tablet or even a laptop are a great way of getting a cheap large screen via Simrad/Raymarine/etc. WiFi connectivity but they work best down below or in a comparatively calm and leisurely moment in the cockpit as a planning tool. A cheap handheld is absolutely fine to use to navigate by though - that and paper charts are luxury compared to even just a couple of decades or so ago.

 

[Neeves]

I'd agree with most of what Grumpy says. We have 3G radar, it will pick up big ships at very long distances, 40nm for example, but I don't know which ships it might also miss at that range. I can see the prodder (bowsprit) on our 38' cat and also the dinghy hanging off the transom - so at close range its is very good - but I hope never ever to need it at the range!. Its not very good with low coastlines even at 10nm. We have found it good for dodging thunderstorm cells - so at variance with Grumpy. Its standby power usage is low and its then instant 'on'.

Realise if you go with Broadband you them really commit yourself to Simrad/Lowrance/B&G - you can mix and match but you will be better off going with one supplier - this becomes important if you are going to have an autopilot.

So decide which are 'your' critical items and then look at the other components - are they what you want, do they do what you need.

I'd agree with Grumpy - radar on a small yacht is a great idea - but do you really need it? Lots of people manage without - but - we have it and would not do without.

Its use is for identifying small boats, runabouts and fishing boats too small to have AIS. Radar will pick them up and they are a nuisance. Big ships are easier to actually see (by eye), so less need for radar (except in fog).

I like the wifi tablet as you can take it into the galley when you are cooking breakfast (difficult to do that with most chart plotters)!

Hone you ideas - and then have a more focussed set of questions.

Jonathan

 

[bitbaltic]

Yes, it does look a bit vague, sorry about that, I'm trying to work out what to use without knowing very much about the subject so a bit blind really.
first off, I know the GO9 is a fairly new unit so wondering if anyone has any experience with that unit, secondly, wondering if anyone has any other ideas/thoughts that I likely haven't even thought of.

Derek

First thought is that I doubt you really need radar for a small boat intended for coastal cruising on a circumnavigation of the UK. Assuming you will be largely day sailing, there really is no call for it. Accurate modern weather forecasts will allow you to plan your voyages and avoid fog and poor visibility for the most part. While not a replacement for radar, many sailors would consider AIS a "normal" component of their instrument setup these days, it is much cheaper, and for leisure coastal sailing it covers a lot of the ground you would expect radar to do.

Second thought is that I would look at B&G not Simrad for your plotter. Simrad, B&G and Lowrance are all owned by a company called Navico and the offerings from the three are all essentially the same hardware but the software varies. Simrad is aimed at powerboats, B&G at sailing yachts, and Lowrance at leisure fishing. The B&G Vulcan is the same plotter as the Simrad GO but it has sailing specific, rather than power boat specific, software. It is a much better choice for you.

Third thought is a 9-inch plotter is bigger than you need for cockpit navigation, may be a bit unwieldy if mounted in the coamings of a folkboat, and represents more spend than necessary. I would consider the 7-inch B&G Vulcan.

The Navico offerings seem to come with a free C-Map N+ cartography bundle at the moment which is a big plus. As an example of a core system have a look at:

B&G Vulcan7 with C-Map: http://www.cactusnav.com/vulcan7-7i...ooking-sonar-transducer-supplied-p-19946.html
B&G V50 N2K AIS/VHF: http://www.cactusnav.com/dscais-radio-with-nmea-2000-p-14723.html?cPath=1117_116_28_30

The Vulcan7 has inbuilt wifi so you can integrate with a tablet. Cheap tablet recommendations on this recent thread: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...vo-tablet-amp-Navionics&p=6044810#post6044810

All that would cost less than the price of a GO9 alone and leave budget for either a Navico radar offering (as mentioned in the posts above) or, I would think more usefully, a quality autopilot.

 

[ianj99]

I have a Lowrance HDS9 Gen3 which is radar ready and also has built in wifi so I can use a tablet directly with the Lowrance GoFree app to see and control everything displayed on the HDS9. It also has sonar port and 2 network ports, one would be needed for the radar.

You don't appear to need the optional wifi interface unless you want more connectivity, eg internet + tablet etc.

I think Simrads are very similar, both brands being owned by Navico and with much compatibility / interoperability.

 

[The Folkboat Melody]

I'd looked at a range of plotters and, with the size of my iPad in mind had discounted anything below 9". Think that might have been a mistake! I didn't know that there was a wifi unit available as such. So that means i could use my existing iPad alongside the plotter?
The current instruments are, as you say NMEA 0183, I've read about a unit that links 0183 and 2000 signals, I'd planned to ask for a rate compass for my retirement present so I guess I'll be able to link it all somehow!
As to power, I've installed 2 large batteries, a wind generator and a Volvo twin cyl diesel.
Thank you for taking the time to answer this, this is exactly what I was looking for. ��

 

[bitbaltic]

I didn't know that there was a wifi unit available as such. So that means i could use my existing iPad alongside the plotter?

Wifi is built into most of the modern "multifunction" plotters like the Go or the Vulcan. You don't need anything else. Your ipad will connect to the plotter directly.

The current instruments are, as you say NMEA 0183, I've read about a unit that links 0183 and 2000 signals

It might help us recommend solutions if you tell us what those instruments are (make & model) and what 0183>N2K device you are considering. You may find, for instance, that the easiest way to integrate them is by looking not at multifunction plotters like the Vulcan/Go but at one of the (realtively) few plotters which are still able to handle both 0183 and N2K inputs, such as the B&G Zeus2 (7-inch unit here: http://www.bottomlinemarine.com/pro...ts_665.shtml?gclid=CJPaksX7s9MCFRGdGwodyIoKyw). These are slightly more expensive, but might eliminate the need for a 0183>N2K converter which tends to make for a more complicated setup. The multifunction displays only have a single N2K port, so once you start wanting to add multiple things (e.g. an N2K VHF or AIS or autopilot plus a converter for legacy 0183 instruments) you get quickly into having to build more of an N2K backbone than you might have intended.

 

[The Folkboat Melody]

The reasoning behind installing radar is that my ambitions don't stop at a circumnavigation, for a very long time now I've harboured thoughts of an Atlantic crossing, most of the work involved in rebuilding Melody has been with this in the back of my mind, she's been built with oversized gear before I bought her, supposedly for this very thing, if, after I complete this 'round the island' if I'm still brave, insane or foolish enough to actually go ahead and do the Atlantic I'll have had some experience with the equipment.
With the Atlantic in mind, I wanted to keep the windage down so mounting the radar needed to be lower, hence the Broadband option due to the absence of radiation, I appreciate that reduces the range, but, with an approaching vessel at 30 knots and a range of 15 miles, a radar watch should give me time to wake up and take action, closer to home, fog and fishing boats were a major factor in favour.
I'd very much like to use a tablet, I've been running iSailor on my ipad for a year now and like it very much, apparently I can use the plotter to integrate wifi so the ipad can linkup,
Thank you for taking the time to answer this, it's exactly the sort of input I need.

 

[The Folkboat Melody]

I'd be interested in hearing a bit more about your coastline experience since that was one of the situations I'd hoped it would help with. Thank you for taking the time to answer this thread, much appreciated.

 

[pvb]

With the Atlantic in mind, I wanted to keep the windage down so mounting the radar needed to be lower, hence the Broadband option due to the absence of radiation,

The minute amount of radiation emitted by a conventional 2kW radome isn't a significant danger, as long as it's on a pole to get it a bit higher than head height (basically higher than the boom). You're at more danger from regular use of a mobile phone.

 

[The Folkboat Melody]

I hadn't twigged about BG Simrad and Lowrance having different market areas, I had noticed the side scan offering on the simrad and wondered how useful it was going to be on a heeling yacht! makes sense now!
Thank you for the BG Vulcan link, I was talking to a guy from Cactus just this last week about all this and he was trying to sell me on Furuno, wish he'd mentioned this.
My reasoning for the 9" plotter was related to my ipad screen size, running iSailor seems to work at that size, but, as you say, the reduction in costs by going 7" instead is dramatic.
the links yo have provided have been very useful , thank you for all this, exactly what I was hoping for.

 

[Neeves]

We are using the 7" NSS, a Simrad unit, which was before they differentiated into sail (B&G), Simrad (Power) and Lowrance (smaller boats/fishing). As fas as i know you can still mix and match. The 7" unit is fine - we bought it because our Raymarine radar went down and we wanted Broadband.

But since we bought the NSS they then differentiated and introduced 'must have' sailing software for any level on the, similar to NSS, B&G units.

This illustrates - if you do not need some function now - wait. In 2 years time it will be better and possibly cheaper.

When we bought they did not have wifi, it was then introduced as a standalone unit and we bought it to use with an iPad - now they can be integrated (again illustrating technology moves and does so quickly) - hold off till you really need something.

We have the 7" chart plotter at the helm and use the iPad 'indoors'. Whatever they say I would not use the tablet outdoors - they are very sensitive to moisture (and on a small yacht, or even a 38' cat, you really have no need to have them both on deck).

So - decide on your critical units, they will determine which of the manufacturers you will run with, check that the ancillaries are what you want and then consider buying in a scheduled manner - as you really need them.

Get into specific units and ask focussed questions and someone here will have used that unit and other will have used 'similar' competitive products.

Jonathan

 

[The Folkboat Melody]

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time and trouble to answer my somewhat vague query, I've learned a lot over the past couple of days, not least the amount i don't know.
I'm coming down to the B&G Vulcan as a plotter, partly price driven, the freebie C Map is a factor, being able to integrate my ipad is another, at this price point I could add an AIS unit and still be inside the budget, I like the Zeus but it's almost the same cost as the GO9 and comes without cartography so an extra cost there.
existing instruments are; (All Nasa)
WInd Speed /DIrection
Depth
GPS repeater
Battery indicator
Electronic Barograph

Garmin GPS

Wanting to install Weatherfax unit, probably pc based unit as space is rapidly disappearing inside

 

[Neeves]

Someone will correct this - but I think most chart plotters come with integral GPS currently. I'd keep the Garmin GPS as a standalone unit - if there are any issues, not suggesting its a common problem, you will have redundancy.

Jonathan

 

[bitbaltic]

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time and trouble to answer my somewhat vague query, I've learned a lot over the past couple of days, not least the amount i don't know.
I'm coming down to the B&G Vulcan as a plotter, partly price driven, the freebie C Map is a factor, being able to integrate my ipad is another, at this price point I could add an AIS unit and still be inside the budget, I like the Zeus but it's almost the same cost as the GO9 and comes without cartography so an extra cost there.
existing instruments are; (All Nasa)
WInd Speed /DIrection
Depth
GPS repeater
Battery indicator
Electronic Barograph

Garmin GPS

Wanting to install Weatherfax unit, probably pc based unit as space is rapidly disappearing inside

It would help if you told us what the exact budget is

I'm not familiar with the Nasa instruments, and I think it might be the case that only the clipper wind has an NMEA output. If you have one of these, there may be value in connecting it to your plotter in order to get True Wind, which I believe the Nasa unit does not do as it requires a seperate repeater fed by both the clipper wind instrument and a gps (!!?).

The rest of it is/probably is stand alone. As Jonathan says there is no point in connecting the GPS to your plotter as the plotter has internal GPS.

To connect any of your existing stuff to the plotter you are going to need an 0183>N2K bridge of some sort and you haven't mentioned which one you're looking at. I repeat my caution about the single N2K port on the Vulcan. These plotters are essentially designed to be drop-fed from an N2K backbone, and if you want to connect multiple things to it (be they N2K or 0813 devices), you are going to have to build a backbone and perhaps purchase multiple 0183>N2K converters, or a multiplexer. This could become very expensive, and is part of the reason why I mentioned the Zeus, because with its own 0183 port it is possibly capable of avoiding some or all of that expense. There's no free lunch in marine electronics- the Vulcan is cheaper than the Zeus because it is able to do less, so it is important to think through the whole system in order to discover which is cheaper in the long run.

Going transatlantic I certainly would want to be able to make a DSC call from an AIS target on my plotter, so integrating a DSC VHF (like the B&GV50 I mentioned) would be quite high on my to-do list. What VHF do you have, or plan to have?

The Simrad NSS7 which Jonathan mentions (and which incidentally I have too) is the Simrad equivalent to the (original) B&G Zeus. Picking up on the point he makes about wifi, one of the changes from first generation (NSS/Zeus) to second generation (NSSevo2/Zeus2) of these plotters is the addition of wifi, so that would work in just the same way as the vulcan with nothing extra needed to connect to your ipad.

You also haven't mentioned whether you want an electronic autopilot or not, and if so which one. Most people with your plans would, (and I think a tiller pilot would be fine for a folkboat). The reason I have been asking about wind integration is because it is very handy to have both the steer-to-waypoint and steer-to-wind options available to an autopilot, and therefore you need to get wind data onto whatever bus the autopilot gets its data from.

Because the radar will connect to the ethernet port of the plotter all of this is really independent of that debate, beyond how you divvy up the budget. If you want it for a transatlantic I poersonally wouldn't go to the expense until going transatlantic (and possibly not even then if I had AIS fitted).

 

[Dockhead]

Broadband radar (we have the 4G) is great, but it's not the revolution it's advertised to be. It's supposed to have revolutionary short range resolution but poor range -- in fact neither is really true. Short range resolution is really good and range is fine out to 20 miles and more. But normal radar with latest DSP is quite similar in performance. I wouldn't let type of radar drive choice of system.

Any reasonably modern electronics can be hooked up to any reasonably modern plotter. The two data standards are NMEA 0183 (older, serial, based on RS-422) and NMEA 2000 (newer, based on Canbus). NMEA 2000 is preferred because it's much easier to wire (everything to a backbone, the backbone also supplies power to the devices). 0183 needs a separate listener port for every talker device, or else you have to use a multiplexer. NMEA 2000 is two way and with no limitations on number of devices.

It's all much cheaper than it used to be. You can save even more money by buying a recently obsoleted generation. This is no big deal because the generations now change as fast as smart phones.