Bringing a boat back from Guernsey to the Thames

[Jen]

Hi,

I badly need some help and assistance from all you experienced people out there. I have bought a boat - a Fairline Mirage 1984 29'. She is in dry dock in Guernsey and I need to get her back to the UK (Thames preferably). The trouble I have is that I need to get her surveyed before I can get insurance, and I need to get insurance before she will be allowed into a harbour. The survey is twice the price in Guernsey, so I'd rather do it in England. I am also not entirely sure what my easiest route back to the Thames would be and how long it would take. I am thinking of bringing her back to the coast at Weybridge, but not sure what the best route would be. Anyone had any experience of this? I'd be very grateful for any help.

Cheers,

Jen.

 

[jimg]

By Road???

If you are serious and not a troll I would get a quote to bring her back by road transport.
A Channel crossing in a 26 year old boat in unknown condition, no thanks!!

 

[Chris_d]

By Road???

If you are serious and not a troll I would get a quote to bring her back by road transport.
A Channel crossing in a 26 year old boat in unknown condition, no thanks!!

I'd second that, especialy if its a petrol version, you won't have a enough spare range to get across safely so it would have to be in short hops up the French side. Having seen several Fairline Mirages of that vintage I'd be very wary of reliability for such trip, 26yr old engines and outdrives might be ok for pottering about but not a voyage of that length.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I think you mean Weymouth on the coast, not Weybridge. Shipping her by truck on a ferry will cost you a fortune from the CI but its worth speaking to somebody like http://www.petersandmay.com/?gclid=CKWKxeWhxaMCFeFc4wodc2p2aA to get a price. IMHO it would be cheaper to just get the survey done, do the minimum you have to do to make her seaworthy and pick a calm day to get her back to the mainland by sea

 

[guernseyman]

If you are serious and not a troll I would get a quote to bring her back by road transport.
A Channel crossing in a 26 year old boat in unknown condition, no thanks!!

jimg has a point.

At the very least you should not think of doing it without an accompanying boat.

Think breakdown, fog, illness, UFO (unidentified floating object), etc.

 

[DAKA]

Hi,

I badly need some help and assistance from all you experienced people out there. I have bought a boat - a Fairline Mirage 1984 29'. She is in dry dock in Guernsey and I need to get her back to the UK (Thames preferably). The trouble I have is that I need to get her surveyed before I can get insurance, and I need to get insurance before she will be allowed into a harbour. The survey is twice the price in Guernsey, so I'd rather do it in England. I am also not entirely sure what my easiest route back to the Thames would be and how long it would take. I am thinking of bringing her back to the coast at Weybridge, but not sure what the best route would be. Anyone had any experience of this? I'd be very grateful for any help.

Cheers,

Jen.

I would sell it in Guernsey and buy one on the thames.

I assume it hasnt got a recent (2 year)vat receipt with it so you will need to pay 17.5% on entry to UK unless you smuggle it in.
That boat is very attractive in guernsey as marine petrol is still cheap and there are plenty of cruising grounds close by.

Once in the UK it could well be worth less as petrol costs more dock side than for a car.

I wouldnt attempt to smuggle it in by sea , never mind on a lorry.


I best qualify my response..........

This is all my opinion and interpretation of VAT laws as a layman
The OP has not given full details and I have made many assumptions.

Even if the boat was VAT paid in the UK , if it has been on Guernsey for a long time say 3 years then the VAT paid status will be lost permanently.
VAT may not be due if the OP intends to return to Guernsey in a month.

 

[Tranona]

I would sell it in Guernsey and buy one on the thames.

I assume it hasnt got a recent (2 year)vat receipt with it so you will need to pay 17.5% on entry to UK unless you smuggle it in.
That boat is very attractive in guernsey as marine petrol is still cheap and there are plenty of cruising grounds close by.

Once in the UK it could well be worth less as petrol costs more dock side than for a car.

I wouldnt attempt to smuggle it in by sea , never mind on a lorry.


I best qualify my response..........

This is all my opinion and interpretation of VAT laws as a layman
The OP has not given full details and I have made many assumptions.

Even if the boat was VAT paid in the UK , if it has been on Guernsey for a long time say 3 years then the VAT paid status will be lost permanently.
VAT may not be due if the OP intends to return to Guernsey in a month.

Almost right! Almost certainly VAT will be due as the purchase took place outside the EU. If the boat was owned by an EU resident, VAT could have been avoided if the owner had brought it back into the EU (even just sailing it over to Granville) to make the sale. The three years bit is the "normal" period allowed in the rules for an EU resident to bring a boat back in without paying VAT. If it was owned by a CI or other non-EU resident VAT would be due anyway. Note that it is a criminal offence to avoid VAT and the VAT due becomes a charge against the boat until it is paid.

No matter how cheap it was (and I suspect cheap) it will almost certainly be a bad buy. As others have pointed out, petrol boats of that age already have a low value in the UK because of high running and fuel costs. Add the cost of getting it seaworthy to come under its own steam or the cost of shipping on Condor or Commodore on a truck and paying 17.5% VAT on the whole lot........!

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Negotiate a tow from a fisherman might be the only viable way to get her across floating. That at least would probably get you to Weymouth

No, that wasn't really meant to be serious!

 

[Jen]

Thanks for all your replies. A bit of additional information, she has 2 new 150 Mercruiser petrol engines that were installed before she was taken out of the water 2 years ago. She was also antifouled at this time and had new anodes. She is dirty and is missing a tonneau cover, but apparently in reasonable nick for her age, having made the trip from the Thames to Guernsey in the water without assistance two years ago. The owner has accepted a £6000 offer for her, and I think that seems to be pretty good value for money, looking at what else is for sale. I accept the petrol price in the UK is expensive, but then again, so is Diesel. I have been told that the trip from Guernsey to Weymouth is likely to only take about 6 hours - can anyone confirm this? Regarding the VAT situation - please explain. What am I paying VAT on - is it the £6000 I will be paying for her, and how do I pay this VAT on her, when she is being sold by a private Channel island Resident who doesn't pass on VAT? Am I correct in thinking that if the owner bought her back to England, and then sold her to me as a private sale, I wouldn't have any VAT to pay? I have looked into bringing her back on a low-loader, but this is going to be prohibitively expensive. What seems to be a cheaper alternative is to do the Channel crossing myself, and get her lifted and transported to the Thames by low loader, which I have had a quote for £450. All comments/suggestions gratefully received. Jenx

 

[DAKA]

Thanks for all your replies. A bit of additional information, she has 2 new 150 Mercruiser petrol engines that were installed before she was taken out of the water 2 years ago. She was also antifouled at this time and had new anodes. She is dirty and is missing a tonneau cover, but apparently in reasonable nick for her age, having made the trip from the Thames to Guernsey in the water without assistance two years ago. The owner has accepted a £6000 offer for her, and I think that seems to be pretty good value for money, looking at what else is for sale. I accept the petrol price in the UK is expensive, but then again, so is Diesel. I have been told that the trip from Guernsey to Weymouth is likely to only take about 6 hours - can anyone confirm this? Regarding the VAT situation - please explain. What am I paying VAT on - is it the £6000 I will be paying for her, and how do I pay this VAT on her, when she is being sold by a private Channel island Resident who doesn't pass on VAT? Am I correct in thinking that if the owner bought her back to England, and then sold her to me as a private sale, I wouldn't have any VAT to pay? I have looked into bringing her back on a low-loader, but this is going to be prohibitively expensive. What seems to be a cheaper alternative is to do the Channel crossing myself, and get her lifted and transported to the Thames by low loader, which I have had a quote for £450. All comments/suggestions gratefully received. Jenx

I went to the trouble to fit an extra extended petrol tank to my last petrol boat to allow me to cruise further but it would have still run out well before 6 hours were up .
You need to supply a lot more information for confirmation though.

In the mean time you can contact HMC&E who will explain how you pay VAT on entry

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...ntent&id=HMCE_CL_000289&propertyType=document

Good luck

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Thanks for all your replies. A bit of additional information, she has 2 new 150 Mercruiser petrol engines that were installed before she was taken out of the water 2 years ago. She was also antifouled at this time and had new anodes. She is dirty and is missing a tonneau cover, but apparently in reasonable nick for her age, having made the trip from the Thames to Guernsey in the water without assistance two years ago. The owner has accepted a £6000 offer for her, and I think that seems to be pretty good value for money, looking at what else is for sale. I accept the petrol price in the UK is expensive, but then again, so is Diesel. I have been told that the trip from Guernsey to Weymouth is likely to only take about 6 hours - can anyone confirm this? Regarding the VAT situation - please explain. What am I paying VAT on - is it the £6000 I will be paying for her, and how do I pay this VAT on her, when she is being sold by a private Channel island Resident who doesn't pass on VAT? Am I correct in thinking that if the owner bought her back to England, and then sold her to me as a private sale, I wouldn't have any VAT to pay? I have looked into bringing her back on a low-loader, but this is going to be prohibitively expensive. What seems to be a cheaper alternative is to do the Channel crossing myself, and get her lifted and transported to the Thames by low loader, which I have had a quote for £450. All comments/suggestions gratefully received. Jenx

Jen, I'm not going to criticise your choice of boat because, as you say, its good value especially with 2 x newish engines and, in case, you're not going to use much fuel pottering up and down the Thames anyway so the extra economy/lower fuel cost of diesel engines is not such an advantage. Its about 80 nm from Guernsey to Weymouth so assuming she'll do 12-15kts, 6 hours sounds about right. The fact that she's got 2 newish engines is a big plus but 2 yrs standing on the hard is a long time and at the very least, you've got to get the engines serviced before you undertake this as well as checking other components like seacocks, sternglands, gearboxes etc. In addition, the boat will have to be equipped with safety gear like lifejackets, flares, radar reflector and IMHO, a liferaft but I think you can rent the latter. What about nav kit? Has it got a working log and echosounder, a chart plotter and a radar would be good.
IMHO, you should spend a few days sea trialling the boat in local Guernsey waters before you undertake the Channel crossing

 

[jimg]

having made the trip from the Thames to Guernsey in the water without assistance two years ago.

Are you saying that it was originally sold new in England? If so, you will not have to pay VAT and the current owner should have the original VAT invoice?

You need to find out what the fuel capacity is and the burn rate of those engines is at cruising speed. Only then can we know if a Channel crossing is possible.

 

[Bav34]

Lots of things to consider, one being the state of the fuel. Were the tanks topped up before laying up? If not you could be amazed at how much water from condensation you could find in the tank.

I helped deliver an ex-layed up 44 foot (850hp ) Sunseeker from Poole to ... Poole Fairway Bouy.

Then the filters filled with water

 

[Tranona]

DAKA has given you the link for VAT. If you bought it from a CI resident then you definitely have to pay VAT if you bring the boat intot he EU. VAT is not payable if you bought a boat from an EU resident in the EU. If the boat changed hands outside EU irrespective of the residency of the vendor then VAT is due. It is normally on the landed cost (which includes the purchase price, any work you have done in the CIs and transport to UK in this case. HMRC may charge on valuation if they believe the declared price is too low or there is no recent transaction (for example if the importer had bought the boat many years before). I expect they will accept your Bill of Sale and your receipts for the work done.

BTW some imports also require testing for a CE mark, but you will not need this because the boat was built in the EEA. That is at least something you don't have to worry about!

 

[Tranona]

Are you saying that it was originally sold new in England? If so, you will not have to pay VAT and the current owner should have the original VAT invoice?

QUOTE]

No this is wrong. Please read the link in DAKAs post.

 

[jimg]

Are you saying that it was originally sold new in England? If so, you will not have to pay VAT and the current owner should have the original VAT invoice?

QUOTE]

No this is wrong. Please read the link in DAKAs post.

Well, you learn something every day! I did not know a vessel could lose it's VAT Paid status.

 

[Wiggo]

Loads of assumptions coming here...

Assuming twin 150's burn 6 gph each at cruise, and
Assuming cruise on that hull is around 20 knots, and
Assumin the run from St Peter Port to Weymouth is 80nm...

That would need 48 gallons of petrol, or 60 gallons to allow a 20% margin and a bit of spare. Don't know what the tank capacity is, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to be able to carry 60 gallons on a boat that size.

Incidentally, I looked at a couple of Mirages for sale on the web and the ask seems to be around £20k, so even if he has to fork out 17.5% on the £6k price, it's still a bargain...

 

[Nautibusiness]

Loads of assumptions coming here...

Assuming twin 150's burn 6 gph each at cruise, and
...

Just a thought, but also check which engines are fitted as I am not aware of Mercruiser petrol 150's.

Usually 135's or 190's and then bigger.

I could very easily be completely wrong, but typically the 3.0 litre version is 135Hp and the 4.3 litre is 190+

At a gentleish cruising speed then 6 gph is reasonable on the 3.0 litre, but that will jump MASSIVELY if you get a bit lively on the throttle.

I have no idea what a gentleish crusiing speed would be in that boat though.

As with absolutely every other poster, I would thoroughly recommend getting to know the boat and her capabilities in Guernsey waters before even contemplating the crossing.

 

[Tranona]

Well, you learn something every day! I did not know a vessel could lose it's VAT Paid status.

Lots of things about VAT are not what they seem. "VAT Status" is a misnomer as VAT is a tax on transactions not assets. Unfortunately the term crept in (from HMRC) but it does not describe accurately the way VAT works. The key term is chargeable event - that is the nature of the transaction is what determines whether VAT is payable not the nature of the ssset (all boats are subject to VAT if the event is chargeable ie it is not exempt or zero rated). Once a boat leaves the EU it is treated as an import if it returns, even if VAT was paid on the original transaction except if the person exporting it brings it back. If it changes hands outside the EU it is treated as an import, which is a chargeable event. There are other specific exemptions as well, all explained in the link, but few people can take advantage of them.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Lots of things about VAT are not what they seem. "VAT Status" is a misnomer as VAT is a tax on transactions not assets. Unfortunately the term crept in (from HMRC) but it does not describe accurately the way VAT works. The key term is chargeable event - that is the nature of the transaction is what determines whether VAT is payable not the nature of the ssset (all boats are subject to VAT if the event is chargeable ie it is not exempt or zero rated). Once a boat leaves the EU it is treated as an import if it returns, even if VAT was paid on the original transaction except if the person exporting it brings it back. If it changes hands outside the EU it is treated as an import, which is a chargeable event. There are other specific exemptions as well, all explained in the link, but few people can take advantage of them.

That's basically obscene and, I suspect, far away from the intent of ther original law which was a tax on value added to something by virtue of a service. I wonder if it has ever been challenged in Court in this sort of circumstance.