Brexit......what are the likely implications on UK and European boating?

Don't you think it is likely, though, that if the UK were to vote to leave, this would then catalyse a wider malaise generally with the European project - and other states would start to have referenda of their own? Faced with a wholesale collapse of the union, perhaps that then might be enough to generate a redefinition of the EU, away from pure federalism and towards a simpler trade area - a European Economic Community, if you like. Back to where the project started. Then, faced with a fundamental change in direction, a scaling down of federal powers, a cessation of this headlong charge towards ever greater union - all those states that voted to leave might actually stay.

Jimmy, I think there may be something in what you have said. I also think a vote to leave with ensure the break up o the UK. The SNP will drive through a unilateral decision to leave UK if we vote to the leave the EU and that would create all sorts of additional disquiet on top of having to negotiate new trade agreements.
 
One of the reasons I wanted to discuss on here was the fact that there are a number of proper Europeans amongst us.

Whilst money might not have ben the main driving force behind Europe it certainly is now. As you say we have more in common with Germany than the southern countries. Things like the fact we both pay tax.

I think much of the angst I feel comes down to the notion of distributing wealth, ie. my money, to people who have chosen not to hand over some of their earnings for the greater good and they now find their country in difficulty.

There is never enough money in politics but as a nation we do take the pain of taxation firmly and squarely on our shoulders. Tax evasion whilst it happens of course is not the norm. At all levels in the UK people accept income tax, national insurance, Vat, vehicle based tax, booze & cigarette tax and so on. Just the National Insurance tax sees every employer paying as much as 13.8% of their employees wages in tax. That's before the Employee themselves pay up to 12%. Then on top of that you have income tax at up to 45%.

Can you see the southern European countries taking that lying down? Of course they don't. Spain, Italy, Greece and others are legendary in their ability to avoid tax. I read that if Italians paid every penny of tax they owe the national debt would be cleared in 8 years.

How can we, the mugs of Europe be expected to support others financially. I know we have been ring fenced from Euro bail outs but we still got dragged down by the Greeks.

As an independent financially secure nation surely we would be better off. A safe haven in a storm ?

Henry :)
 
Tuna in Tokyo is rare. I don't mean it is difficult to find, just not cooked. Tasty though. The puffa fish can be quite a treat too ��

Called Tuna Crudo in Italy/Carloforte
The only way to eat it IMHO
There was the local Tuna dish but I preferred it Crudo
Even better when MAPISM's SWMBO prepared it with her Caper recipe
 
One of the reasons I wanted to discuss on here was the fact that there are a number of proper Europeans amongst us.
We are all Europeans, Henry, whether we like it or not;)

I read that if Italians paid every penny of tax they owe the national debt would be cleared in 8 years.
You could probably say that about any other country including the UK. For example, the sainted Germans are not averse to a bit of tax evasion themselves judging by the numbers of them who have been found with Swiss bank accounts recently. Having dealt with the Italians in business for more than 30yrs, you really need to distinguish between northern Italy, where the vast majority of the wealth is generated and taxes paid, and southern Italy where the vast majority of govt spending seems to disappear so tarring all Italians with the same brush is a bit unfair. In fact, in my experience, the Italian tax system is often more rigorously applied than ours and certainly N Italian companies are far more diligent about their tax accounting than many UK companies!
 
In the real world sod all will change. Why? Because the European integration project is struggling and the U.K. Is the second largest individual importer of EU manufactures. They need us, so when the "negotiations" start after the Brexit vote the shell shocked Brussels bureaucrats will want to find ways for business as usual to continue.
 
In the real world sod all will change. Why? Because the European integration project is struggling and the U.K. Is the second largest individual importer of EU manufactures. They need us, so when the "negotiations" start after the Brexit vote the shell shocked Brussels bureaucrats will want to find ways for business as usual to continue.
Well, no one knows but I'd be more worried about the current account; we won't be importing much as either GBP will be down the toilet or that long expected rise in interest rates (then required) will crush off any consumer optimism.
UK lives off consumer spending and house prices; good luck with those with an Exit vote.
 
As you say we have more in common with Germany than the southern countries. Things like the fact we both pay tax.

I think much of the angst I feel...
Totally o/t now, but does anyone know if there's a way with the current forum interface to understand to whom a post is meant to reply?
In this case for instance, I suppose henryf post is in reply to myself because of his "As you say..." sentence, but as I recall, with the old interface the sequence of posts/replies was immediately evident without the need for guessing.

Anyway, back to the point.
H, I'm sorry if I stroke a nerve when I quoted your sentence about what you are and what you are not, but it was nothing personal - far from that.
In fact, I'm well aware that most British would support your statement - which btw is totally legitimate, regardless of whether I (or anyone else) share a similar sentiment or not.
But trust me, there was ZERO angst in my comment. Not one iota. I was simply summarizing/observing facts.
Even when I said that Deleted User was spot on with his sentence re. many EU citizens being happy to get rid of the "troublemaker" UK, I hope it was clear (fwiw, i.e. not much) that I'm not one of those "many".
Otoh, it's hard to argue that if democracy is the name of the game, it would have been fair to ask to the already participating EU citizens whether to allow a new Country in or not, at any given point in time.
And while I'm not sure that my vote would have been yes in all cases, it definitely would have for the UK.
Actually, if given a chance, I would have subordinated the acceptance to the condition of joining also the EMU, but that has more to see with economic technicalities, as opposed to the EU founding principles (originally envisaged by an Italian guy called Altiero Spinelli, even before the 2nd WW was over - you can google for him and his "Manifesto di Ventotene" if you're interested), on which such decisions should be based.

All that said, we can debate our "legendary ability to avoid tax" in as much details as you wish, if you are willing to read a post whose length would make this one just a title line in comparison - because that's not even another chapter, more like a different book entirely.
But in a nutshell, funnily enough you are 100% correct, because that ability of ours is just that, legendary.
Maybe it has to see with the fact that most Italians have the weird habit of considering that something to be proud of, to the point of pretending to be good at that even when they are actually just amateurs.
Let me make you a couple of question in this respect: within Europe, ...
1) where would you go nowadays if you would be looking for the sharpest knives in the drawer (consultants, lawyers, etc.) to support your tax avoidance needs?
2) which is the Country whose corporations are world masters in absolute values of tax avoidance, anywhere they are located with their branches, subsidiaries, etc. - other than in their home Country?
Hint: the answer, in both cases, is not ES, IT, or GR. It's not even CH anymore, for question #1.
They are rather two "above suspicion" Countries, pretending that "we both pay tax"... :rolleyes:
 
Perhaps we are being asked the wrong referendum question.

If the question were

"Would you support the UK govt to leave the EU if the Govt cannot negotiate acceptable restructure deal for UK and EU for future?".

If they got a yes vote to that (which would seem less risky and absolute to vote yes) then it would really strengthen the negotiation with the EU for real change.
 
Last edited:
I disagree with that, sort of.
In the vision of those who inspired the EU foundation, money was the last of their concerns - or better said, it was, but only in the very long run.
In fact, the EMU was originally envisaged just as a wooden horse for going towards a full flagged political union, which not only was the true target, but also a necessary implication of the EMU.
And some of these folks were true statesmen, capable to look at the next generations - in sharp contrast with the politicians, who look at the next elections.

Nowadays, we are surrounded by politicians.
Some of them see the cost of each Country contribution as an opportunity to leverage their personal position/power, and they do their best to exploit such opportunity - btw, don't do the mistake of thinking that this happens only in the UK.
As a result, citizens who normally wouldn't care less about the EU and its mechanisms (contributions included), listen to these politicians screaming and decide that avoiding to use "our" money to support "them" is an appealing proposition. And the very same goes for migrants.

Of course, none of these politicians (nor the respectable citizens who support them) would think of dumping their garbage over the fence of their neighbours, would they?
But for some reason, they think it's appropriate to do exactly the same on a much larger scale, for the whole Country.
In this respect, again talking (at risk of generalizing, obviously) of the similarities between EU citizens, British have more in common with Germans than with us further south, who would rather do the opposite... :rolleyes:


How very well put MapisM..
Re: the likely implications on UK and European boating, I think the whole economic situation is so volatile at the moment that no-one can even vaguely predict what is going to happen nor whether it was the resulting of the UK leaving or staying in or whatever. Look at the accuracy of just ten year predictions over the past 50 years - possibly the post war period was the only one vaguely realistic. I'd suspect the impact on boating to be quite small unless either a) some politician gets an idea in his head or b) boating gets caught up in some legislation intended to deal with something else entirely. Otherwise I think it's not something that will be at the top of any lists - it's just not important enough in the bigger picture.

Re: Understanding to whom a post is meant to reply, if the poster has used the Reply button on the actual (as opposed to the Reply to Thread button at the bottom of the thread) I think you need to switch to Threaded mode using the "Display" dropdown at the top right of the thread.

Re: Tuna it should be seared, not cooked (a personal opinion).
 
Re: Tuna it should be seared, not cooked
Now, that's a connoisseur comment, if I've ever seen one! :encouragement:
Btw, I believe that several forumites who came to CF actually did try the seared steak of bluefin tuna, because during the season it's in the menu of all the local restaurant.
Anyway, it's indeed a fantastic fish also for raw recipes, just in case you never tried it.
Like with the capers sauce that Hurric mentioned, which is indeed delicious - and my wife ain't a lurker around here, so I'm not saying this just to please her... :D

Thanks for the reminder on the threaded display mode.
In fact I forgot it, but I just re-checked it (and also the hybrid mode), only to remember that I already did after the interface was changed, but found it awful and never used it.
Maybe I'm making confusion with some other forum, but didn't we have a much better sort of "threaded" view with one of the older forum engines?
No big deal anyway, not to mention that it would be unfair to criticise a FoC service, after all... :)
 
Seared tuna served with jasmine rice and a soy and honey dressing. Sublime.

While we are thread drifting, I had absolutely fantastic tuna on a bed of linguine, down here in Hout Bay, overlooking the water. Washed down with some Morgenhoff Chenin Blanc. Best meal I have had for a loooong time ��
 
Perhaps we are being asked the wrong referendum question.

If the question were

"Would you support the UK govt to leave the EU if the Govt cannot negotiate acceptable restructure deal for UK and EU for future?".

If they got a yes vote to that (which would seem less risky and absolute to vote yes) then it would really strengthen the negotiation with the EU for real change.

I totally agree. Ultimately I don't want to shun relationships with other European countries and I certainly don't want to close any doors but I am feeling that "we" in Britain want to take back control of our lives and acknowledge the differences between ourselves and other members.

Part of me feels that by voting out we would possibly end up in a second round of negotiations where the UK is in a much stronger position, not that the key players didn't take big Dave seriously. His stance of wanting to remain but needing change was valid, the content of any requested change possibly not weighty enough.

My fear is that political point scoring by politicians and parties claiming general support rather than the actual support for this one isolated element of their mandate takes over and sensible options are ruled out.

Henry :)
 
H, I'm sorry if I stroke a nerve when I quoted your sentence about what you are and what you are not, but it was nothing personal - far from that.

which is the Country whose corporations are world masters in absolute values of tax avoidance, anywhere they are located with their branches, subsidiaries, etc. - other than in their home Country?

Absolutely no offence taken.

This is a discussion amongst friends and I am keen to learn. Yes, ultimately British see themselves as just that not European, well the Scots seem to be getting all Euro friendly if we are to believe their leaders but that remains to be seen. The big divide is our currency. By retaining the pound we kept ourselves out of Europe proper. That and the Shenghen situation.

Where would I go to seek corporate tax efficiency. Well the YBW forum would be my first port of call :) and that would lead me to London probably in conjunction with Holland and / or Luxembourg etc.

In the uk we have a staggering problem with corporate tax avoidance largely because we seem to embrace large multinational organisations. I think some of our Euro cousins resist them. Take coffee shops. In the UK your coffee will have come from a Starbucks or a Costa. In Italy or indeed much of Europe it will have come from an independant outlet.

That corporate grey fog enveloping the UK is killing us and dumbing down choice, quality and the generation of revenue. A family business pays tax, a huge organisation doesn't. Well, not to the same extent because they have experts and it's worth exploring tax efficient vehicles.

On the plus side a family of 4 can have pizza and desert for under £10, the problem is it tastes like sh1t and there's more food on the floor than on the plate because the children running the place are just following pictures in the guide.

Henry :)
 
Mapism, this is a serious question. We have heard a lot on this thread and on the many threads on the Lounge about why many Brits want to leave the EU. We have also heard a lot from people who favour staying in the EU about the negative economic consequences of the UK leaving the EU. But what we haven't heard anything about is what are the positive reasons for Britain to stay in the EU

Obviously you are Italian and like the vast majority of your countrymen, you favour Italy staying in the EU. So what do you see that is positive about Italy staying in the EU and do you think those same positives apply to the UK?
 
It's not just coffee shops which most people are aware of being slippery, Boots also do the Double Dutch/Irish or whatever the scheme is this week.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/boots-defiant-over-latest-tax-dodge-accusations-1448803

However, the government use the EU as a cop out when it comes to VAT as they say they are obliged to charge VAT on certain products because the EU says so. This not quite true as the rates set by each country vary but the fact that we can't remove items from the tax man because of the EU . I know to my own cost because of the long winded answers I get whenever I asked the Treasury.
 
I really feel strongly about aggressive tax schemes. We are large enought that we pay a sizeable amount of money in 1 form or another but too small to get involved in fancy schemes, and to be honest I'm not sure I want to. Call me stupid but I think there needs to be enough in the pot to function, pay off debt and generally keep us on an even keel.

I even recognise the need for Scotaland to be treated differently to the rest of the Uk as they have unique challenges although I am finding it increasingly difficult in the face of their aggressive and point scoring political leaders. Ultimately the best thing for me would be to see an inner M25 super state but that wouldn't be fair on the rest of the Uk.

Leaving Europe would I hope allow taxation inequality to be tackled more easily. Certainly our politicians wouldn't be able to bring out the "EU" card every time the going got bumpy.

I had no idea Boots were involved in tax schemes.

Why as a nation do we allow and accept these things and why doesn't parliament crack down? It would surely generate billions of pounds is revenue and win immense popularity amongst voters. Just like Europe the companies are hardly going to turn round and say they don't want to trade here. If the only reason they are here is because of loose tax laws them let's have people in their place who can work the nations pockets in a way which benefits us all. Underselling in a race to the bottom is easy, any fool can do it. Making profit as you go is harder.

Henry :)
 
Leaving Europe would I hope allow taxation inequality to be tackled more easily. Certainly our politicians wouldn't be able to bring out the "EU" card every time the going got bumpy.
I very much doubt it. If you're concerned about taxation, you should appreciate that the EU wants to move towards a harmonised taxation regime which should make it more difficult for companies to avoid tax so on this basis you should be voting to stay in the EU. Speaking personally, I think this is a very bad idea because a harmonised taxation regime will only ever lead to taxes being harmonised upwards and IMHO tax competition between countries is a damned good idea in order to keep taxes under control

As for taxes being tightened up after a Brexit, I can only see the opposite happening. The UK govt will have to try even harder to attract inward investment and part of that attraction will have to be a benign tax regime. So if you're worried about multinationals avoiding UK tax, IMHO you should be thinking about voting to stay in the EU, not out
 
I had no idea Boots were involved in tax schemes.


Henry :)
Ok, but Boots is a long way from the old corner shop chemist you might have been thinking of...it is part of Wallgreens Boots Alliance with a turnover in excess of $100 bio...
Room for some fancy tax accounting in there I would think.
 
Top