Brexit......what are the likely implications on UK and European boating?

I'd vote to leave because I hate that some bureaucrat in another country forces my car to have a useless headlight spray wash (true first world problem). But if I look at the hand that feeds (my business), which started in the recession and has flourished in the past few years, then I'd have to vote to stay in because change 'could' bring uncertainty / instability. So I'm in.

I'm sure most will make their decision based on 'will I be better off in or out', slightly selfish perhaps but probably the deciding factor for many. That could mean those who are happy with their business / financial situation will vote in to keep status quo, those who feel they have nothing to lose vote out?
 
Nick_H said:
The idea that EU countries would cut off their noses to spite their faces and try to punish Britain for leaving at the expense of their own economies is fanciful. Britain would have a strong negotiating position, so could negotiate fair terms.
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There I beg to differ because the primary aim of any bureaucratic organisation is self preservation and the primary aim of the EU will be to prove to it's remaining members that no country can leave the EU and still retain all the advantages of membership in terms of access to the Single Market. After all, if the UK gets its cake and eats it, then there is no reason for any country to remain a member. The other consideration here is that these decisions will taken by politicians who have their own prejudices and national interests to pander to and as we know with politics, often economic logic takes a back seat
 
Deleted User said:
There I beg to differ because the primary aim of any bureaucratic organisation is self preservation and the primary aim of the EU will be to prove to it's remaining members that no country can leave the EU and still retain all the advantages of membership in terms of access to the Single Market. After all, if the UK gets its cake and eats it, then there is no reason for any country to remain a member. The other consideration here is that these decisions will taken by politicians who have their own prejudices and national interests to pander to and as we know with politics, often economic logic takes a back seat
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Don't you think it is likely, though, that if the UK were to vote to leave, this would then catalyse a wider malaise generally with the European project - and other states would start to have referenda of their own? Faced with a wholesale collapse of the union, perhaps that then might be enough to generate a redefinition of the EU, away from pure federalism and towards a simpler trade area - a European Economic Community, if you like. Back to where the project started. Then, faced with a fundamental change in direction, a scaling down of federal powers, a cessation of this headlong charge towards ever greater union - all those states that voted to leave might actually stay.
 
It is the creeping grabbing of powers and changing the nature of the 'club' which is the problem. It was a Common Market, then a European Economic Community and now it is the European Union. The last name change says it all really. It needs to go back to purely trading arrangements and if you have to fill in a piece of paper before the plane lands when flying to Paris or Munich, so what.
 
Deleted User said:
There I beg to differ because the primary aim of any bureaucratic organisation is self preservation and the primary aim of the EU will be to prove to it's remaining members that no country can leave the EU and still retain all the advantages of membership in terms of access to the Single Market. After all, if the UK gets its cake and eats it, then there is no reason for any country to remain a member. The other consideration here is that these decisions will taken by politicians who have their own prejudices and national interests to pander to and as we know with politics, often economic logic takes a back seat
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I agree Mike. I don't understand why people think that negotiating a free trade agreement will be a breeze. Look how difficult it's been for Cameron to negotiate some trivial concessions. A free trade agreement post an exit woul I presume require treaty change and agreement from all members. How do we know that we won't end up like Denmark?
 
petem said:
I agree Mike. I don't understand why people think that negotiating a free trade agreement will be a breeze. Look how difficult it's been for Cameron to negotiate some trivial concessions. A free trade agreement post an exit woul I presume require treaty change and agreement from all members. How do we know that we won't end up like Denmark?
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Because they need us to buy their goods.
 
I would agree.

There is a big difference between arguing over stuff when you know the demanding country is in the EU and so to a large extent has their hands tied behind their back.

Counter that with wanting your cheese, cars, chrysanthemums, cardboard, chipboard and chocolates to enjoy free passage into the Uk so they can be purchased in UK pounds sterling and the proceeds returned so you can convert them into your native Euro, Drachma, Franc, Mark or Lira.

Punitive import taxes wouldn't work for either party. I have nothing against free and open trade even when the French government muddies their waters with state aid. I do like the thought of being able to live by our own rules though and can't help thinking that as a net importer of stuff the notion of having to pay to be part of the gang seems odd.

Henry :)
 
Hurricane said:
Because they need us to buy their goods.
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Our exports to the EU account for nearly 50% of total UK exports whereas EU exports to the UK account for 15% of EU exports

We need them more than they need us
 
jimmy_the_builder said:
Don't you think it is likely, though, that if the UK were to vote to leave, this would then catalyse a wider malaise generally with the European project - and other states would start to have referenda of their own?
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We in Britain always tend to underestimate the goodwill towards the EU (and the Euro) in other countries. Whereas we in the UK can easily contemplate exiting the EU, for many other EU citizens, it would never cross their minds because they feel much more part of a grand European project than we do. Apart from that, unlike us, many EU citizens trust Brussels politicians more than their own. Most Italians would rather be ruled from Brussels than Rome (I stand by for comments there!). So, no, I cannot envisage a Brexit causing the wholesale collapse of the EU. In fact quite the opposite; many EU citizens would be happy to get rid of what many see as a troublemaker
 
Deleted User said:
Most Italians would rather be ruled from Brussels than Rome (I stand by for comments there!). So, no, I cannot envisage a Brexit causing the wholesale collapse of the EU. In fact quite the opposite; many EU citizens would be happy to get rid of what many see as a troublemaker
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Since you asked... :)
I'd rather say that most Italians would rather not be ruled at all.
What most folks down here think of politicians, as the old saying goes, is that they must be changed often, like diapers, and for the same reason.
But till someone will find a way of running a Country (or a Town, County, whatever) without them - and there are indeed folks working on that idea - they are a necessary evil.
Otoh, the idea to be in better control of Politicians when they are "nearer" to your own Country (again, or Town, etc.) is purely wishful thinking.
And it's pointless to explain why, 'cause history is better than any logical argument in this respect.

Interestingly though, if I really should generalize, there are other differences between British and Italians.
The patriotic spirit is miles apart for instance, to the point that it's unnecessary to specify where it's higher/lower.
"We are not European, we never have been we are Italians" is something you would struggle to hear from anyone in IT.
You could possibly find folks feeling to be BOTH European and Italian, or folks who couldn't care less.
But the superiority complex (sort of) underlying a statement like this is extremely rare in IT, while I wasn't surprised at all to read it here, just a few posts earlier.
Maybe it's just because we completely lost memory of when we were a world ruling empire, and these memories are a bit more "fresh" in the UK, 'dunno... :rolleyes:
All that said, in my experience Italians are among the people more "attached" to their Country, and would never spend their life anywhere else unless forced to - in sharp contrast with many British.
We could call that patriotism the IT way, I suppose! :cool:

But I digress. Back to the point, FWIW I'm afraid that you are spot on with your last sentence above.
One HUGE mistake that the "Inner Six" Countries made when the EC was founded is not having thought of a democratic mechanism for approving the admission of a new member into the club.
I mean, a really democratic system, like a referendum among all the already participating Countries.
If such mechanism would have been in place, my bet is that today the UK could avoid the hassle of voting, because it would not have been admitted, to start with - not without joining also the EMU, at least.
And 'fiuaskme, that would have been a shame, but a democratic one nonetheless.
 
MapisM said:
I mean, a really democratic system, like a referendum among all the already participating Countries.
If such mechanism would have been in place, my bet is that today the UK could avoid the hassle of voting, because it would not have been admitted, to start with - not without joining also the EMU, at least.
And 'fiuaskme, that would have been a shame, but a democratic one nonetheless.
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Ah right, now I understand! You Europeans view we English in the same way as we English view the Scots. You've put up with us whining and moaning for decades and, now, if you had half a chance you'd vote to chuck us out:D

And who would buy all your pizza and Lambrusco then?
 
Oi, you're the one who said "many EU citizens would be happy to get rid of what many see as a troublemaker".
All I said, in a nutshell, is that you are correct.

And fwiw, I did say also that in my humble opinion a EU without the UK would be a shame.
Mind, a shame not just for the EU, but also for the UK.
Then again, other EU citizens (undemocratically!) can't have their say - only you are...
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PS: Anyhow, I have a funny feeling that our pizza and lambrusco producers don't need to worry regardless... :cool:
 
As the UK is the second biggest net contributor to the Eu coffers, I think there will be very many Europeans who would miss the UK should we vote to depart. Please don't forget the power of money MM. This is not just about politics, and peoples preferences, one of the issues to the UK citizens is the cost of our contributions.
 
rafiki_ said:
This is not just about politics, and peoples preferences, one of the issues to the UK citizens is the cost of our contributions.
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I disagree with that, sort of.
In the vision of those who inspired the EU foundation, money was the last of their concerns - or better said, it was, but only in the very long run.
In fact, the EMU was originally envisaged just as a wooden horse for going towards a full flagged political union, which not only was the true target, but also a necessary implication of the EMU.
And some of these folks were true statesmen, capable to look at the next generations - in sharp contrast with the politicians, who look at the next elections.

Nowadays, we are surrounded by politicians.
Some of them see the cost of each Country contribution as an opportunity to leverage their personal position/power, and they do their best to exploit such opportunity - btw, don't do the mistake of thinking that this happens only in the UK.
As a result, citizens who normally wouldn't care less about the EU and its mechanisms (contributions included), listen to these politicians screaming and decide that avoiding to use "our" money to support "them" is an appealing proposition. And the very same goes for migrants.

Of course, none of these politicians (nor the respectable citizens who support them) would think of dumping their garbage over the fence of their neighbours, would they?
But for some reason, they think it's appropriate to do exactly the same on a much larger scale, for the whole Country.
In this respect, again talking (at risk of generalizing, obviously) of the similarities between EU citizens, British have more in common with Germans than with us further south, who would rather do the opposite... :rolleyes:
 
LOL, you'd better avoid also the best restaurants in Tokyo then.
You would be offered the very same stuff at a tenfold cost... :D :cool:
 
MapisM said:
LOL, you'd better avoid also the best restaurants in Tokyo then.
You would be offered the very same stuff at a tenfold cost... :D :cool:
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Tuna in Tokyo is rare. I don't mean it is difficult to find, just not cooked. Tasty though. The puffa fish can be quite a treat too ��
 
MapisM said:
LOL, you'd better avoid also the best restaurants in Tokyo then.
You would be offered the very same stuff at a tenfold cost... :D :cool:
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I bet they don't do tuna flavoured ice cream though;)
 
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