Brexit......what are the likely implications on UK and European boating?

diligaf said:
This
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Thought the answer to that was pretty obvious from the posts that did address the issue - there is no answer, just speculation.

Exactly what happened when the topic cam up on Scuttlebut.

The two main issues for boating are free movement and VAT, both of which will figure large in the negotiations if there is an exit. If we believe what we read in the press, the current government does not have any concrete plan for such negotiations. The Brexit folks equally have no concrete plan, but at least they have an excuse as they are just a bunch of disparate people with no organisation of any substance to produce one.

So, pointless to speculate what might happen.
 
The truth is we don't know what will happen to boating because it depends on answers to basic questions which no one will know until we take the leap.

Can I beg that the forum allows me some slack here for a moment. There are a wide spectrum of people on here many of whom I know reasonably well. More importantly those people come from a wide range of ages, business backgrounds and importantly countries. I genuinely value your thoughts. I know there is a scuttlebutt section but I don't know any of the people on there and I'm not interested in forum hot heads or idealists. I think I can have an honest discussion on here.

For the first time in my life I find myself pondering a voting decision which has a genuine importance and which I'm struggling to find information on. I don't want to vote based on Nationalism, pride, hearsay or someone else's ulterior motives. I want to make the right choice for the UK moving forward.

I started off thinking we should stay. Fear of change, fear of the unknown, better the devil you know and so on.



Then I decided we should leave. We are a big enough economy that Europe needs our business. France needs to sell Peugeot, Citroen, food, trains and so on. Germany needs to sell us Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, VW, Audi, etc, Italy needs to sell us Fiat, Alfa Romeo, furniture etc and so the list goes on. These are just the headline products I see everyday. Either way Europe isn't going to put a ring of steel around us.

We would be able to make our own rules, politicians would have to be more accountable, they couldn't play the "Europe says we have to" card. I struggle to see people coming into the UK benefiting from our already struggling social services, healthcare and so on.

We are not European, we never have been we are British. Unfortunately I think we apply European rules more literally than many European countries and we just take the beating without retaliating as possibly France, Italy and others do.

We also pay out a huge amount of money into Europe. Yes, I know we benefit from a single European economy but Europe needs us. We import more than we export. I was shocked at the time it took and the seemingly impossible task of negotiating the very gentle demands that Cameron brought to Brussels. How can we possibly be part of this. It's hard enough getting the UK to agree to rules, what hope 28 countries?




Now I think we should stay again. To be part of that European market we will be asked to conform to many of the regulations currently in place. We are already outside the Shenghen agreement so have some degree of control of our borders. Of the European immigrants I see many hard working people contributing to our Economy and society. The Polish have been a real credit to us. Hard working, investing in the UK, setting up businesses and doing their work with pride. You might berate their building skills but you have a choice when commissioning work.

I have seen French people working hard in the financial services industry and we surely owe them a debt of gratitude in pulling our dining reputation out of the gutter. The Germans have come along and added management structure to our car building industry helping exports worldwide. Not sure what the Greeks have done but there you go :)

Given we will still be made to conform to many European rules. It would take a level of brinkmanship tantamount to cutting our noses off to see us any better off. At least being in means we have a say. The big question for me is what is the huge benefit associated with leaving that makes it worth rolling the dice?

If I'm being honest I would probably vote to leave if it meant Europe then pulled their fingers out and gave us a better deal to stay in but that doesn't seem to be an option.

I'd love some help in making my mind up.

Henry :)
 
With regards to boating, I suspect the most immediate effect - probably short-term will be a fall in Sterling. This will likely increase the cost of imported consumer goods (i.e. most of them), parts, fuel and thus servicing costs! I personally don't see a devaluation as a bad thing as it will make our exports more competitive at at time we would be looking to expand and build new trade deals in the wider global economy. North Sea oil would benefit and thus so would the offshore oil industry. The costs of overseas holidays etc would also rise and thus perhaps boost home-grown spending and UK tourism, as cheap package deal overseas become less 'cheap'. All this could well have a positive effect on the UK boating industry, both in terms of home grown demand and exports.

The danger is of course that it may well be the catalyst that results in the inevitable (IMHO) collapse of the Euro. At which point, EU goods will be even cheaper than ours, making us less competitive in the global trading space.

I confess to being firmly in the 'leave' camp, but unlike many this view is nothing to do with migration. I wholeheartedly support the provision of refuge for those fleeing war, persecution etc - particularly because of the role our elected representatives have played in many of these conflicts. It's a difficult issue however and offering refuge to those in need as opposed to those just looking for a better life isn't always that straightforward and much depends on numbers and our ability to support them. We shouldn't however be paying benefits to wider families overseas - that's their responsibility if they choose.

My main concerns with the EU are those of eroding democracy, waste, unnecessary interference in sovereign matters and lack of accountability. We also have groups seeking independence all over Europe and devolution here in the UK and yet the more integrated the EU becomes, the less democratic the process becomes. This will create future conflicts. We don't need the extra tier of governance or the additional costs. The latter which IMHO, would be better channelled into the NHS or giving genuine refugees a new start than funding an extravagant EU gravy-train.
 
henryf said:
I'd love some help in making my mind up.

Henry :)
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Guess just the same as several million others. Don't hold your breath as neither camp want to move the debate away from the speculation and counterspeculation. Partly because they have no more idea of the consequences and partly because there is no potential government or party that supports one or the other to the level where they can put together a manifesto for post referendum government.

Just as an example how would control over borders be exercised? Would we have immigration officials in every port and harbour? Just imagine a concrete proposal for controls to ensure everybody coming in and out of the country was vetted individually, and every pleasure boat inspected and granted permission before sailing outside the 12 mile limit. On trade, nobody is prepared to commit to what a post exit deal with the remaining EU would look like - not even what is desirable let alone what is achievable.

My view is that the undecided, which if the polls are to be believed is the biggest single group will make their decision on the day and may well decide based on what is the most convincing argument in the last few days before the 23rd. As we have seen, and you have described this group can convince themselves either way.
 
Unlike Henry, I made my mind up years ago.
I look at things much more conceptually.

The EU concept is fundamentally undemocratic.
I believe in an elected Westminster government that WE (in the UK) elect.

I love the European countries but they are all different.
Conceptually, the EU is just trying to drive them all into the same "bucket".
There is a wealth of different cultures in Europe.
In my view all have their good and bad points - that what makes them what they are.
Brussels is just trying to make everyone the same - and we aren't.
 
henryf said:
I'd love some help in making my mind up.
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Henry, in the absence of any real information as to what's best for the country, you have to ask yourself what's best for you and your family. Is your business doing well at the moment? If so, why vote for something that brings economic uncertainty and may damage it
 
I agree that it is difficult to predict the precise effects on us if we leave but perhaps we should ask "How will the French and others view us when we have told them that we don't want to be part of Europe anymore? Will it improve their attitude towards us or cause resentment and a more negative attitude than we meet now? Perhaps those of us in England should ask ourselves what our attitude to the Scots would have been if they had voted to leave the UK........... Perhaps it's not all about taxes and trade agreements but how the common man in France will treat visitors from the UK if we leave.....
 
This is an intriguing thread viewed from the sidelines outside the EU (about 14 miles).

As you are all aware CI boats are not VAT paid and a number of residents don't have EU passports. Coming and going is a simple process where passports or identity is required when travelling by public transport. In many years of travelling to and from French ports on private vessels I have only been stopped once for a cursory inspection and even then the officials were not interested in paperwork after a few simple questions were answered to their satisfaction.

OTOH for a number of you who KEEP boats in europe, I believe there may be some paperwork problems in the future with new vessels but no issue with current boats who can prove a Vat paid status.

Trade between the CI and Europe obviously happens without issue and as far as the tax haven image is concerned I think all European countries have tax exchange agreements with Jersey now. Obviously Europe could survive without Jersey potatoes and milk, maybe not the oysters, but Jersey could certainly nit survive without Europe.

Jersey will be impacted by any vote in the UK but as we are outside we won't have the opportunity to vote.
 
Thanks for the replies thus far.

The problem I have with conceptual concept voting is I feel the stakes are too high. My second thoughts were to leave on the basis I liked the through of being master of our own destiny. The trouble is when thinking through all the issues it merely opened up a can of worms.

What is golden reward for leaving which makes it worth rolling the dice of uncertainty? As I see it there are a number of possibilities if we leave but fundamentally Europe want to do business with us pretty much as they are doing now. It is possible we end up worse off, no one knows?

By leaving what massive benefit do we get? That's where I'm struggling. Master of our own destiny, pride, etc are all great but don't put food on the table. China and America have said they want us in, presumably because they fear a messy relationship ensuing between Europe and ourselves if we split.

I see it that by leaving we are at best in the same boat financially, but potentially we end up worse off. I can't see a huge gain to be had by leaving?

It might be that by leaving Europe collapses which might not be a bad thing for us as one of the stronger economies but all that will take time and have huge implications for decades whilst things sort themselves out.

Henry :)
 
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henryf said:
... I feel the stakes are too high.
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Are they?

Part of the reason why it's difficult to decide is that both sides want broadly the same thing, which is free trade with Europe without joining the euro or Schengen or being part of an "ever closer union", and retaining key decision making powers in the UK. The "in" campaign is not arguing to join the inner circle and the euro currency, and the "out" campaign isn't promoting splendid isolation. The differences are relatively subtle, and I don't think most people will notice much change either way.

As a result I'm also on the fence, however I'm leaning towards voting to leave, because if you look at the bigger long term picture, Europe is moving towards federalism, so most of its policy will be aimed at closer union and supporting the euro currency. As we want neither of these, why be bound by policies that are mostly focussed on them, and be exposed to higher risk if the euro project fails.

Imho there is no doubt that if the UK votes to leave we will quickly negotiate a free trade agreement with Europe. At the moment of course, every comment coming out of the EU is designed to persuade Brits to vote to to stay in, mostly by painting a bleak picture of how the EU would respond if we left, and the market turmoil that would ensue. Following a "No" vote of course, the position of the EU and its member states would change completely, and the aim would be to mitigate the damage to the EU of Britain leaving. The best way to do this, and settle the markets, is to quickly negotiate some terms that allow free trade between the EU and the world's 5th largest economy, and easy movement of people and goods. The idea that EU countries would cut off their noses to spite their faces and try to punish Britain for leaving at the expense of their own economies is fanciful. Britain would have a strong negotiating position, so could negotiate fair terms.
 
henryf said:
By leaving what massive benefit do we get? That's where I'm struggling. Master of our own destiny
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Good reply, Henry
It is somewhat refreshing to hear a balanced debate even though we are only able to consider the information that we are given in the press.

In answer to your post and my conceptual one above, I believe that you have "kind of" answered your own question.
Your point being "Master of our own destiny".
Outside the EU, we could make our own mistakes or successes.
And remember successes generally come from learning about your mistakes.
Inside Europe, we will have to do what they say.
In our field (Motorboat) - Remember the Red Diesel issue - our Westminster government (HMRC) didn't want to administer an expensive scheme to tax a few leisure boaters.
The EU insisted and is still insisting on Red Diesel being abolished.
This is a small case of many where we are being governed by people other than the politicians that we have elected into Westminster.
I don't mind being told what to do but I do mind being told what to do by a government that I haven't elected.
 
Interesting.

The problem is we can all recount tales of Euro meddling. Red diesel, Abu Hamza and the curvature on bananas. What we don't know is how much common sense stuff gets sorted out saving our legal boffins time & money. Yes, I'm aware bananas fall into the Euromyth hamper as does so much of the stuff reported in the media.

An interesting suggestion that both sides are actually closer together than might be gleaned from the media. Certainly big Dave was happy enough to say we'd be leaving if Europe didn't agree to his demands. Given the rather paltry content of his list - not that you'd know it from the hot air and time taken to agree then maybe leaving isn't the be all & end all we are now warned about.

My biggest concern is the hidden economy. I understand cars, engineering, cheese, beer and even stuff like architecture, IT and video games. What I don't know about is the word of banking, money and all that malarkey. Would I be right in thinking for instance that if we voted out it would to sort out this mess of multinationals such as Google, the coffee mafia, Jungle based on-line shopping services and burger joints taking the p1ss out of us when it comes to tax.

In my humble opinion it takes a lot of migrant sponging to even scratch the surface of the worst of these corporate thieves pillaging our pockets and fleeing to the hills with their ill gotten gains.

I also think it's sad that everyone sees this vote as a reflection on the people championing either side. Whilst I might contemplate voting out I would rather live in a mud hut in some far off country than have Mr Farage as my Prime Minister. Similarly if we do leave I don't see it as a vote of no confidence in big Dave. It's a shame politicians and the media have to point score at every opportunity.

Henry :)
 
Hurricane said:
Good reply, Henry
It is somewhat refreshing to hear a balanced debate even though we are only able to consider the information that we are given in the press.

In answer to your post and my conceptual one above, I believe that you have "kind of" answered your own question.
Your point being "Master of our own destiny".
Outside the EU, we could make our own mistakes or successes.
And remember successes generally come from learning about your mistakes.
Inside Europe, we will have to do what they say.
In our field (Motorboat) - Remember the Red Diesel issue - our Westminster government (HMRC) didn't want to administer an expensive scheme to tax a few leisure boaters.
The EU insisted and is still insisting on Red Diesel being abolished.
This is a small case of many where we are being governed by people other than the politicians that we have elected into Westminster.
I don't mind being told what to do but I do mind being told what to do by a government that I haven't elected.
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How do you feel being told what to do by a government that say; wins an election on the back of false manifesto promises or voting for a party which throws all ideology and principals to the wall just to take a seat at the table.

It feels to me that there have been far more breaches of our so called democracy by elected politicians and ministers in the last couple of decades than I can keep track of; if your decision to vote No is based on loss of our constitutional loss then ok but I'm not sure which is the greater evil;
Being governed by proxy or being governed by a party that lied and stole to get into power;

I can understand, if not agree, with people voting for the big emotive issues such as boarder control but to vote on the principal that membership of the EU undermines our democracy is a little strange, given that we are being given the opportunity to make a democratic decision about the issue? Or am I missing something?

From my point of veiw, like Henry, in many respects a vote on the micro issues, do I feel well off, does red tape work in my favour, do I benefit from economic migration and do I enjoy freedom of movement are all pushing me toward Yes, I just have to convince Ann so as my vote is not cancelled by her No vote!
 
Nigelpickin said:
How do you feel being told what to do by a government that say; wins an election on the back of false manifesto promises or voting for a party which throws all ideology and principals to the wall just to take a seat at the table.

It feels to me that there have been far more breaches of our so called democracy by elected politicians and ministers in the last couple of decades than I can keep track of; if your decision to vote No is based on loss of our constitutional loss then ok but I'm not sure which is the greater evil;
Being governed by proxy or being governed by a party that lied and stole to get into power;

I can understand, if not agree, with people voting for the big emotive issues such as boarder control but to vote on the principal that membership of the EU undermines our democracy is a little strange, given that we are being given the opportunity to make a democratic decision about the issue? Or am I missing something?

From my point of veiw, like Henry, in many respects a vote on the micro issues, do I feel well off, does red tape work in my favour, do I benefit from economic migration and do I enjoy freedom of movement are all pushing me toward Yes, I just have to convince Ann so as my vote is not cancelled by her No vote!
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At least we could kick the barstewards out next time, which we have little option for in Europe.
 
alant said:
At least we could kick the barstewards out next time, which we have little option for in Europe.
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Tony Benn's famous quote:

"What power have you got?

"Where did you get it from?

"In whose interests do you use it?

"To whom are you accountable?

"How do we get rid of you?"

"Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system."
 
Cheery said:
Tony Benn's famous quote:

"What power have you got?

"Where did you get it from?

"In whose interests do you use it?

"To whom are you accountable?

"How do we get rid of you?"

"Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system."
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Questions he might have put to his trade union masters.
 
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