Brexit and VAT status - flotilla from UK

PHN said:
In this topic I read a lot of assumptions and no hard facts how regulations indeed will be applied. In part that is because the rules and regulations are not yet defined, so we cannot know at this moment.

I am not an expert on this topic, but just a few practical comments that might be worth to look into.

1. The boat has a flag, meaning that it belongs to a particular country. That is different from goods like e.g. a bike that are located in a country. If you have a car with a UK license plate in the EU after brexit that might as just well create a new situation which is different from your UK purchased bike in your EU holiday home.
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This is the RYA advice on No Deal Brexit ...

If a deal is not reached on leaving the EU the UK will be treated by the remaining 27 EU Member States (EU27) as any other third country would be treated.
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There is a well established regime for handling boats from 3rd countries which enter EU waters. They have to check-in with customs and immigration when they arrive in an EU country. This involves flying a courtesy flag of the country whose waters you are in, a yellow "Q" flag, and heading for the closest port of entry with customs facilities. There the crew are checked by immigration and police and the boat is granted an 18 month temporary import which means it can stay in the EU country without paying VAT or import duties for a maximum of 18 months - it also doesn't need to fullfil the RCD or have any CE markings. If there is a no deal Brexit then this is the base assumption for UK boats as the UK will become a third country and will be treated the same as US, Canada etc. The boats flag state has absolutely no relevance.

How France, Belgium, Holland, Germany etc. decide to treat visiting UK yachts is totally up in the air IMHO. They may be pragmatic and go back to a pretty lax self-declaration type of route or it may end up orders of magnitude worse than the red diesel issues. We don't know.

There may be an agreement put in place, but what is described above is the default in absence of any other agreement.

Here are the rules for visiting Turkey for example ... The EU rules may end up looking pretty similar but the general idea is the same for most countries which host foreign yachts.

http://www.allaboutturkey.com/boat-rules.htm

Here is a taxation summary of EU rules for non-EU vessels.

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/rules_for_private_boats-faq_en.pdf

Here is the Noonsite (US based) info on checking into a foreign country ... UK citizens will almost certainly need to comply with all of this in event of a hard Brexit with no other formal agreements in place.

https://www.noonsite.com/report/a-guide-to-checking-in-and-out-of-countries-with-your-sailboat/

..and here is the RYA No Deal Brexit faq.

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/current-affairs/Pages/no-deal-Brexit-scenario.aspx

PHN said:
2. Marina invoices normally do not uniquely identify one particular boat. If presence in some marina would work - which I don't know - then take care of rock solid evidence which will hold up in court that your boat indeed was in that marina at that time. After all it could be a look alike from somebody else or your friend the marina owner is just helping out without your boat actually being overthere.
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My marina invoices were more than adequate proof for the processing of my zero rate VAT in Croatia when Croatia joined the EU. The marina my boat is moored at is obliged to keep a list of foreign flagged vessels berthed at the marina for customs and excise purposes - they also keep a copy of all the ships papers, including customs documents. When you run over your 18 months temporary import then depending on how switched on the marina and customs are (and probably depending on the value of your boat) then the boat can be siezed in its marina berth and held until the taxes and import duties are paid.

Like Brexiteers keep saying, we used to travel and trade before the EU ... yes we did, and we're all about to be reminded what a pain in the arse it was.
 
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Speaking of Turkey: EU paid UK boats wintering there (probably quite a few) shouldn't be heading to Greece? What about if the owner has taken e.g. Turkish residency in the meantime?

Same question for the Canaries, which is not part of the EU VAT territory.
 
GTom said:
Speaking of Turkey: EU paid UK boats wintering there (probably quite a few) shouldn't be heading to Greece? What about if the owner has taken e.g. Turkish residency in the meantime?

Same question for the Canaries, which is not part of the EU VAT territory.
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I would imagine that most EU owned boats in Turkey are there VAT free - it's one of the main attractions of Turkey and that's where a lot of Croatian boats fled when Croatia joined the EU in order to avoid VAT and import duties. As an EU (or UK) citizen you can keep a boat in Turkey VAT free under temporary import rules. I used to keep one in Croatia.

The main issue with UK VAT paid boats in Turkey is that they will no longer be able to visit Greece in order to reset the 3 year clock on their VAT paid status as the UK will no longer be part of the EU ... the boat will have to visit the UK instead.

If a boat is exported or sold outside of the EU it can lose its VAT paid status. The vessel needs to have been outside of the EU for more than three years or changed owners outside the EU for this to happen. If an owner exports their vessel for say, two years and then brings it back to the EU (e.g. keeps it in Turkey but visits Greece regularly), it won’t have lost its VAT paid status. However, customs duties may apply. If it is outside of the EU and brought back more than three years later, with a different owner, or having undergone a major refit which would change its value, then VAT will need to be repaid.

Once you become a citizen or resident of the country where the boat is kept, you usually become liable for the associated taxes.
 
Comrade Red said:
So basically get a marina invoice inFrance for 31st Oct and 1st Nov, then sail back to UK. The EU invoice avoids any VAT nasties in EU for future trips, and the original invoice showing UK vat paid when new solves the UK.

A quick trip end of Oct therefore seems the best amd safest bet right now.
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I wouldn't bet on that working. Many marinas do a patrol every day and note which visitors are in which berths. And being French they will keep those records somewhere.
 
DJE said:
I wouldn't bet on that working. Many marinas do a patrol every day and note which visitors are in which berths. And being French they will keep those records somewhere.
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Why wouldn't it work? The boat would arrive the evening before and be there on the morning in question but leave in time to reach a UK marina before midnight. No different to those who weekend in Cherbourg.
 
Graham376 said:
Why wouldn't it work? The boat would arrive the evening before and be there on the morning in question but leave in time to reach a UK marina before midnight. No different to those who weekend in Cherbourg.
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Of course the fast motorboat owners could arrange to be in both Calais and Dover at midnight on 1st November ...
 
RichardS said:
Just how fast are these "fast motorboats"? :confused:

Richard
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If a motorboat has a journey of 20 nautical miles to complete, and does the first 10 nautical miles at an average speed of 10 knots - How fast does it need to travel the remaining 10 nautical miles to have an average speed of 20 knots for the entire journey? ... The motorboat needs to be that fast ;)
 
Baggywrinkle said:
Good point, it would be possible to be in France at midnight on Brexit day, and then in the UK at midnight on Brexit day too ... lol :encouragement:
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Only problem is the day we leave we leave at 23.00hrs UK time

I suppose if you had AIS and you could straddle the boundary of UK and French waters @ 23.00hrs would that count :rolleyes:
 
Bobc said:
This is a subject that is of interest to me, as I plan on going cruising in a year or two's time.

The VAT on my boat was paid in the Azores (EU) on route from Antigua to the UK, so currently it has EU Vat-paid status.

Since then, it has lived in the UK (for 8 years), however as the UK is currently part of the EU, I assume that it has not left the EU in that time.

I guess the question is, will my boat have to be in the EU on 30th/31st to remain EU Vat-paid, or will it be deemed that it is (as the VAT was actually paid in the EU), with the "2 years outside the EU" clock ticking from 1st November?
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Ask Mountain. He says everything will be clear by October 31....
 
chrishscorp said:
Only problem is the day we leave we leave at 23.00hrs UK time

I suppose if you had AIS and you could straddle the boundary of UK and French waters @ 23.00hrs would that count :rolleyes:
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I fancy using Strangford Lough. It would be quite feasible to anchor in the middle with half the boat in the U.K. (NI) and half in Eire at the witching hour.
 
Not sure any of this debate is going to help anyone and until the dust settles after B day no one will know.
Under EU legislation a boat is deemed a "Mode of Transport" (I believe that is the term), just like a car or motorcycle or truck. Similar legislation applies to both boats and road vehicles when it comes to matriculation and movement within the EU.
There will likely be thousands of road vehicles in the "wrong" country on the day of our exit. Just like there will be thousands of boats in the "wrong" port.
Would the same rules not be applied to all MOTs? If they are its going to get very messy for some people and companies.
 
greeny said:
Not sure any of this debate is going to help anyone and until the dust settles after B day no one will know.
Under EU legislation a boat is deemed a "Mode of Transport" (I believe that is the term), just like a car or motorcycle or truck. Similar legislation applies to both boats and road vehicles when it comes to matriculation and movement within the EU.
There will likely be thousands of road vehicles in the "wrong" country on the day of our exit. Just like there will be thousands of boats in the "wrong" port.
Would the same rules not be applied to all MOTs? If they are its going to get very messy for some people and companies.
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Aircrafts - to name a pricey category - and bigger boats than the 30' AWB too... Besides, no one knows the exact B-day, 5 minutes before they can arrange another week extension and your well planned trip to Cherbourg with the holiday arranged with your boss is busted for nothing.

I only hope, that logic prevails and vehicles/"MOTs" will get the same 3 years absence allowance as any EU vessel leaving the EU VAT area temporarily.
 
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