Wansworth
Well-known member
Anybody remember him on theses forums,came across his name a boatbuilder built a very nice bilgekeel 36 footer and sailed across the Pacific he the builder/sailor thought bilge keels gave a less rolly ride,interesting
Brent Swain
- Thread starter Wansworth
- Start date
davidej
Well-known member
He of the steel origami boats ?
DownWest
Well-known member
Difficult to forget Brent. The idea was OK, his evangelism was a bit OTT, along with dissing well respected designers, because they asked legit questions about his design knowledge (lack of..)
Banned off most forae.
Banned off most forae.
capnsensible
Well-known member
He had two brothers in the Navy. Boat and Cox.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
Gave the armchair sailors something to discuss, during the long cold winters, on the isle of Barra
awol
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Long but not particularly cold - London tends to be colder - that is until the Gulf Stream turns off.
Lightwave395
Well-known member
He rusted away somewhere...
Laminar Flow
Well-known member
I've met and spoke to him (briefly) personally and I've seen his boat. To call it very nice looking is overegging it just a little.
I have also seen and been on a number of his designs and if you have a penchant for rather utilitarian looking things that are perfectly happy to sacrifice any pretense to hydrodynamic efficacy for ease of construction, then, by all means, fill your boots. In the past , and to satisfy my interest into bilge keels, I did some research into their design. Swain's ideas on them, including a toe out attitude, seems to contravene most of what is known about any of the more successful applications. The supposedly less rolly part of the equation has probably more to do with their shallow draft and a reduction in the radius of gyration over the deeper fin keel variant. To be effective in roll attenuation, requires low aspect ratio and speed. He got the aspect ratio right, which is not so good for sailing to weather. I'm much less sure about the speed component.
For what it's worth, there was a time in the 80's when all sorts of people sold steel boat plans for the home builder - that ship has sailed. There is absolutely no economic case to be made for that now.
Wansworth
Well-known member
There was a designer back in the 1980 Feltham who had quite a success with twin keels …..Seawolf26/30.I had a very nice Alan Pape designed hull and deck in steel which I fitted out which is still going strong in the rias But as usual with a mature fitting out costs can run away,still it was a good sea boat for much less than a factory produced craft
Laminar Flow
Well-known member
I agree that Alan Pape designed some fine looking, and seaworthy yachts.
The French seem to have discovered twin keels as of late the performance of which has nothing in common with that of some of the early British efforts. For cruising boats twins have much to recommend them.
Tomahawk
Well-known member
That will be because French think what if I try this. The English seem to look forward to a better old fashioned design.
Wansworth
Well-known member
There bilge keels and there are twin keels
Lightwave395
Well-known member
'Interesting' design I saw in the yard in Southern Brittany last year - the French designer Pierre Roland has a couple of Pogo-like designs, spartan but functional interiors, the owner let me have a look around, I'd hardly call it bilge keels, as you say:
DownWest
Well-known member
Most of the RMs have twin keels, somewhat like the above.
Laminar Flow
Well-known member
Yes, I mis-wrote. I am aware of the differences between bilge and twin keels and I used to own a Griffiths' Waterwitch (bilge).
My interest at the time was specifically towards the use of asymmetric profiles. The French take on twins is to use fins with a much higher aspect ratio and less focus on shoal draft. That said, a single fin with that slender a form would be of course considerably deeper.
Sirius also offers their boats with a twin option and they claim that there is as good as no sacrifice in performance for that choice. I have yet to see that substantiated. Regardless, the RM seem to have good performance with their variant.
For shoal water cruising the French variants would encounter much the same structural issues as any other boat with a short keel root would in the event of a grounding. I'm also not sure how well they might fare resting on that single skinny rudder tip when refloating in a bit of a swell either.
So, for sheer cruising practicality, if not so much for performance, the British take on twins is not necessarily all wrong. Performance, IMHO, comes in many different flavours.
My interest at the time was specifically towards the use of asymmetric profiles. The French take on twins is to use fins with a much higher aspect ratio and less focus on shoal draft. That said, a single fin with that slender a form would be of course considerably deeper.
Sirius also offers their boats with a twin option and they claim that there is as good as no sacrifice in performance for that choice. I have yet to see that substantiated. Regardless, the RM seem to have good performance with their variant.
For shoal water cruising the French variants would encounter much the same structural issues as any other boat with a short keel root would in the event of a grounding. I'm also not sure how well they might fare resting on that single skinny rudder tip when refloating in a bit of a swell either.
So, for sheer cruising practicality, if not so much for performance, the British take on twins is not necessarily all wrong. Performance, IMHO, comes in many different flavours.
Tomahawk
Well-known member
I saw a write up of a French shoal draft twin lifting keel job. Draws all of 18 inched boards and rudders up and designed to take the ground... best part of 2m boards down. Think it was built by Pogo?
Laminar Flow
Well-known member
A single lifting keel is quite enough of a complication and maintenance issue on it's own (been there, done that). Not sure how doubling up on that is overly beneficial.
Most French shallow draft boats seem to have centre boards these days with all inside ballast (Ovni, Boreal etc.)
The Haber 34 motorsailer has 4 centre boards and a lifting rudder for the maintenance obsessed and to apparently achieve selfsteering ability, something that could be much more easily, and cheaply for that matter, be achieved with an autopilot.
DownWest
Well-known member
There is a 30ft in the local marine with twin lifting dagger boards. At least they are out of the centre of accomodation. Might be a one off and in ply. Tackles look light, so not heavy boards, likely internal ballast.
Tranona
Well-known member
Bit like the Fairey Atalanta from the early 1950s. Designed by Uffa Fox.
DownWest
Well-known member
Recovered one of those from Sardinia in '69, interesting boat.