Bow Thruster - Timer Switch Project

[Talulah]

One of the problems I have on Talulah is people inadvertantly operating the bow thruster without realising it.
The bow thruster has a master switch down below and then a second switch within reach of the helm mounted on the engine panel.
With this switch turned on the bow thruster is then controlled via two foot switches. Press the left foot and the bow goes left and vice versa for the right switch. We don't have a Sidepower switch panel as I much prefer operating the bow thruster with foot controls keeping the hands free for the wheel.
The issue is people forget to turn off the bow thruster switch after use. They merrily sail along unaware they are bracing themselves on the bow thruster switch or are standing on rope which is inturn on top of the switch. The bow thruster draws 400 amps. Extended use kills the batteries. I have just had to replace the engine battery.
So finally, a job I should have done long ago was fit a timer relay.
I have found the perfect part for just such a job hence sharing the info on here.
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=734391
together with the mounting http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=1340954.
The bow thruster once switched on now remains live for 10 minutes. After that it switches off. To reset the switch has to be turned off and back on again.
The two indicator lamps (one orange, one green) hadn't arrived in time for the weekend in order to show the bow thruster power status so will have to wait for now.

 

[Ridax]

The side power panel has a timeout that switch off the panel (and power if you have the automatic power switch) some time after last use. But how do you use the timer relay? I hope you just switch off the control buttons as the relay can't handle the current for the bow thruster.

 

[nigelmercier]

I hope you just switch off the control buttons as the relay can't handle the current for the bow thruster.

Ditto. I wonder why this relay was chosen, there are others at half the price. But even that is expensive, this is similar to the shower drain timers I made for less than a fiver.

 

[William_H]

Bow thruster control

I think I would be looking more for a simple solution to the problem. One simple trick from way back was for a steel handled toggle switch. I drilled 1/8 inch hole sideway in the switch lever and solder 6 inches of welding rod into the hole. It is bent so that it sticks up and gets in the way when turned on encouraging you to turn it off. Lies flat when switch is off.
In aviation and other places you can get a plastic guard over a toggle switch. Again this sticks up at an odd noticeable angle allowing the switch to be turned on and lies very unobtrusive when closed and switch is turned off. Used when you don't want a service inadvertently turned on or left on. Just a few thoughts olewill

 

[Talulah]

The side power panel has a timeout that switch off the panel (and power if you have the automatic power switch) some time after last use. But how do you use the timer relay? I hope you just switch off the control buttons as the relay can't handle the current for the bow thruster.

No Sidepower panel fitted.
Here is a schematic of how it was wired up.

Ditto. I wonder why this relay was chosen, there are others at half the price. But even that is expensive, this is similar to the shower drain timers I made for less than a fiver.

This relay ticked the boxes but I'm not suggesting it's the only solution.
I and I suspect others would like to know what cheaper alternatives could have been used.
It is expensive so as this is the "Practical Boat Owners" forum perhaps you could provide suggestions and give details of how it could be done for under a fiver.

I think I would be looking more for a simple solution to the problem. One simple trick from way back was for a steel handled toggle switch. I drilled 1/8 inch hole sideway in the switch lever and solder 6 inches of welding rod into the hole. It is bent so that it sticks up and gets in the way when turned on encouraging you to turn it off. Lies flat when switch is off.

Don't think it would suit in this case but I like the practical suggestion.

 

[Ridax]

My solution wasn't cheaper than a fiver, but I think it was worth it. I bought a powerful relay for 500+A (I have two thrusters). Cost UK£40.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kilovac-E...stems_PLCs&hash=item43af8d50ee#ht_4524wt_1226

And then a standard/simple relay (to give the large relay the coil/control power). Don't remember exactly model/cost but they usually cost around UK£ 4.

And then SidePower's standard touch panel costs around UK£ 86.

A total of UK£ 130 and it gives you control buttons for the thruster and automatic power down after some time of inactivity and also an easy way to activate it again from the control panel (pressing two ON buttons). This solution also powers off the bow thruster.

 

[Talulah]

My solution wasn't cheaper than a fiver, but I think it was worth it. I bought a powerful relay for 500+A (I have two thrusters). Cost UK£40.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kilovac-E...stems_PLCs&hash=item43af8d50ee#ht_4524wt_1226

And then a standard/simple relay (to give the large relay the coil/control power). Don't remember exactly model/cost but they usually cost around UK£ 4.

And then SidePower's standard touch panel costs around UK£ 86.

A total of UK£ 130 and it gives you control buttons for the thruster and automatic power down after some time of inactivity and also an easy way to activate it again from the control panel (pressing two ON buttons). This solution also powers off the bow thruster.

If I understand correctly your powerful relay is doing the job of the main breaker switch in my schematic. I'm not sure how you're getting a positive into the system to initially drive the relay that drives the main relay. Presumably a simple on/off switch somewhere.
I'm surprised you have a main relay like this (not saying there is anything wrong with it) but I don't see much advantage over a breaker. Bit like an anchor windlass. There is a main breaker for the real power and a small switch for the control power.

 

[Ridax]

The control power is supplied from the ordinary electrical system that supplies instruments and such (which has a main breaker, but it is the one that turns on everything else on the boat).

The advantage with having a power relay to control the power to the thrusters instead of (or in addition to, if you like) a manual breaker is that you can turn off the power to the thrusters easily from the helm (in case of an emergency), you can turn it on easily from the helm (in case of an emergency or just for convenience) and it automatically turn off power from the thrusters (and not just the control buttons) after inactivity (for safety).

 

[halcyon]

One of the problems I have on Talulah is people inadvertantly operating the bow thruster without realising it.

Remember that bow thrusters normally have a limited continuous running time, 1 1/2 to 3 minutes in the hour, so check your thruster and timed period.

Also running bow thruster from engine battery, with engine running, it is being supplied by the alternator, overload.

Lateral thought ...... instead of controlling the thruster control circuit, why not put in a timed audio alarm from the deck buttons. Stand on the button, after say 1 minute the alarm goes off, after a couple of alarms they will stop it, also reminds you to turn off master switch.

Brian

 

[Talulah]

Fitting the Sidepower Panel has some advantages. It auto stops the thruster in case of accidental solenoid lock in or if run signal is continous for more than 3 minutes.
Equally, it auto shuts off the thruster after 6 minutes after last use.
It also prevents rapid switching from left/right.

In my set up though mounting this panel is a pain and so happy to live without the above.
With foot controls though the accidental run is so high (especially with others using the boat) I had to do something about it.

Also running bow thruster from engine battery, with engine running, it is being supplied by the alternator, overload.

Not sure what you mean by this.

 

[Ridax]

Fitting the Sidepower Panel has some advantages. It auto stops the thruster in case of accidental solenoid lock in or if run signal is continous for more than 3 minutes.
Equally, it auto shuts off the thruster after 6 minutes after last use.
It also prevents rapid switching from left/right.

There is a control relay attached to the side power thruster. I am not sure which functions are built into that and which is in the control panel, but I am sure the time delay is in the thruster and I believe the solenoid lock auto stop is there as well, while the auto shut off after inactivity certainly is in the control panel.

So even if you have mechanical switches attached to the thruster control signals, you should benefit from some of the protection features.

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

I note that although the coil rating for ths relay is dc the contact rating is ac!
The contacts may not make and break the dc current being used. Yes I know it is only the control circuit and not the main thruster current but I would still like to know what the dc rating is for the contacts!

 

[rogerthebodger]

I have a similar arrangement with foot switches at my outside helm position.

Mine are the light duty vetus type sold for windlass operation and have a cover that when in the down position prevents accidental operation by just stnding on then.

To operate with the ball of my foot I must lift this safety cover but it can still be operated with the safety cover down with a finger or with pressing my big toe in to the hole on the safety cover.

I don't like auto time outs as during docking I want all my available means of operation available to all the time until I am fully tied up to the dock and only then switch off the power to my bow thruster and stop my main engine.

IMHO you need to fit a switch that cannot be accidentally operation.

 

[Talulah]

There is a control relay attached to the side power thruster. I am not sure which functions are built into that and which is in the control panel, but I am sure the time delay is in the thruster and I believe the solenoid lock auto stop is there as well, while the auto shut off after inactivity certainly is in the control panel.

So even if you have mechanical switches attached to the thruster control signals, you should benefit from some of the protection features.

Just rereading the manual. It looks like only the auto shut off after 6 minutes is in the control panel. All the other 'safety' features are in the thruster.

Quote:
Electronic time-lapse device protects against sudden change of drive direction. Electric thermal cut-off switch in electromotor protects against over heating (auto reset when electro motor cools down).
Flexible coupling between electro-motor and driveshaft protects electromotor and gearsystem if propeller gets jammed.
If original Sidepower panel is used, the panel shuts off automatically 6 minutes after last use.
Integrated microprocessor monitors solenoids, reducing wear and risk of solenoid lock-in. Auto-stop of thruster in case of accidental solenoid lock-in or if run signal is continous for more than 3 minutes

 

[Talulah]

I don't like auto time outs as during docking I want all my available means of operation available to all the time until I am fully tied up to the dock and only then switch off the power to my bow thruster and stop my main engine.

One of my neighbours has complained to me that the 6 minute cut off by the Sidepower panel is too short. When coming in if he turns the thruster on too soon it's not available when he needs it.

 

[Talulah]

I note that although the coil rating for ths relay is dc the contact rating is ac!
The contacts may not make and break the dc current being used. Yes I know it is only the control circuit and not the main thruster current but I would still like to know what the dc rating is for the contacts!

Seems strange no output rating for DC.
The Sidepower control unit has an internal fuse of 1A so I assume the control circuit is not much of a drain through the relay.
In practice, the timer relay is up and working fine. It remains to be seen if it stays that way.
One thing I do like about that particular relay is the two inbuilt leds that show when the input is live and when the output is on. Should prove useful for fault diagnosis. I have not added the indicator lamps yet. This will increase the power through the relay but as they are LED at 20mA should still be fine.

 

[nigelmercier]

It is expensive so as this is the "Practical Boat Owners" forum perhaps you could provide suggestions and give details of how it could be done for under a fiver...

The attached is the schematic diagram for my Shower Pump Drain Timer. A push of the button energises the relay for about a minute. For a longer delay, increase the capacitor in proportion.

Parts list (less switch) from CPC:

Order Code	Qty	Product Description	Line Price Ex. VAT (Inc. VAT)
			
SC07316	10	DIODE 1N4148	£0.20
RE04971	1	RESISTOR, 0.125W 1% 75K x50	£0.46
			
CA07278	5	CAPACITOR, 220UF, 16V	£0.45
SW02952	1	POWER RELAY, PCB, 12V, SPCO	£1.77
			
		Total	£2.88

 

[Talulah]

The attached is the schematic diagram for my Shower Pump Drain Timer. A push of the button energises the relay for about a minute. For a longer delay, increase the capacitor in proportion.

Parts list (less switch) from CPC:

Order Code	Qty	Product Description	Line Price Ex. VAT (Inc. VAT)
			
SC07316	10	DIODE 1N4148	£0.20
RE04971	1	RESISTOR, 0.125W 1% 75K x50	£0.46
			
CA07278	5	CAPACITOR, 220UF, 16V	£0.45
SW02952	1	POWER RELAY, PCB, 12V, SPCO	£1.77
			
		Total	£2.88

Your cheating. With mounting board, case, wire, solder and switch it will be over a £5 and what about that transister?

 

[Jabberwocky]

Thinking out side the box here how about a really annoying klaxon come on whenever thr trusters are used. That way whenever someone touches them by mistake they will know

 

[nigelmercier]

Your cheating. With mounting board, case, wire, solder and switch it will be over a £5 and what about that transister?

I used a potting box, less than 50p. I thought the switch was existing, so another 50p. I forgot to price the transistor, these will set you back a whole 5p each. Solder and wire, no comment.

No PCB, I mounted it all on the relay.