Bottom line re Greek Tax

[Glyka]

Glyka reading questions 3 an4 again I didn't really see why you asked them but understood the following,


I was planning to go and will do so....Meaning I was going to leave Greece anyway and this tax won't make any difference.

I was planning to go but will not.....Meaning I was going to leave Greece but now decided to stay..I must say I couldn't grasp the logic of that one!!

Hope the polsters have interpreted 3 and 4 better than I.

I think that it's clear that the first two options refer to those that are currently in Greece. So, obviously the remaining options (3 & 4) refer to the rest (those that are somewhere else) and were planning to go there (to Greece). I also hope that everybody understood this.

 

[Tony Cross]

I think that it's clear that the first two options refer to those that are currently in Greece. So, obviously the remaining options (3 & 4) refer to the rest (those that are somewhere else) and were planning to go there (to Greece). I also hope that everybody understood this.

It's only since I've been struggling to learn Greek that I've realised what a nightmare English must be for a non-native speaker. It's so disorganised and with so many possibilities for misunderstanding - actually much of British humour is based on those misunderstandings. I think the native English speakers will have understood the differences between the options very well.

Although the sample size is pitifully small and almost certainly not representative it's interesting that a fraction over 90% of those who already keep their boats in Greece will continue to do so and 40% of those not in Greece but intending to come will still do so. I think that, within the limits of this poll, that supports the Greek government's contention that there will be no mass exodus of visiting boats because of this tax, and those boats that do leave will be replaced by others visiting for the first time.

 

[chuckr]

we are over 12m and are waiting to see how the over 12m tax is applied - if for the months we are there only - then we will go next year but we simply can not afford it if it the full amount regardless of time -- we had also planned to winter over there but that is not out - way to much money

but i still have a problem gettting my mind around the fact that if i stay 1 month i will pay a lot less than a smaller boat - just not logical

 

[NOHOH]

Statistics to Prove Anything

Although the sample size is pitifully small and almost certainly not representative it's interesting that a fraction over 90% of those who already keep their boats in Greece will continue to do so and 40% of those not in Greece but intending to come will still do so. I think that, within the limits of this poll, that supports the Greek government's contention that there will be no mass exodus of visiting boats because of this tax, and those boats that do leave will be replaced by others visiting for the first time.

Yes, Tony,....but this forum is predominately populated by the British and I wonder what nationalities make up the largest proportion of yachting visitors to Greece.... Will the Italians, for example, put up with being taxed like this?...

So the poll (with only 65 British replies) does not tell the Greek Government very much at all....or..more importantly.. what the `silent majority` think..........

 

[Tony Cross]

Yes, Tony,....but this forum is predominately populated by the British and I wonder what nationalities make up the largest proportion of yachting visitors to Greece.... Will the Italians, for example, put up with being taxed like this?...

So the poll (with only 65 British replies) does not tell the Greek Government very much at all....or..more importantly.. what the `silent majority` think..........

And you're absolutely right of course. But I have heard from a couple of sources that the Greek government is firmly convinced that there will be no mass exodus and I was simply pointing out that this tiny survey supported that view. What seems also to be true is that across the country visiting boats make up a fairly small proportion of the total number of boats in Greek waters, so even if there were a mass exodus it probably wouldn't cause the Greek government to change their minds about this tax.

That said, there are several local areas where any exodus would have an important and negative impact. The marina here on Crete for example, is well aware that any exodus will impact their business and they have already taken steps to try to prevent that by introducing an additional discount for over 12m boats (who are the hardest hit).

I think the only possibility of this tax being abandoned is if there are significant objections to it from within Greece and the tax has been carefully designed to avoid that. From what I'm hearing the objections that there are within Greece are not likely to make the government change their minds. The best that we can do is to try to make it's implementation as painless and as fair as possible and this is what the CA (in conjunction with other national sailing associations) has been doing all along.

 

[silver-fox]

One scenario that is not covered by this poll is the length of stay!

I was planning a leisurely visit of an undecided duration.

Now with a taxi (tax) meter running and a 12.7 metre sailing boat I shall make sure I don't waste any money, so a shorter (in time terms) tour is the order of the day. The strap line in my mind is

"Greece; too good to miss, too expensive too linger"

I have little doubt that the law of diminished returns will apply, with the tax take going up on this new direct boat tax, but with a larger drop in VAT and similar taxes caused by lower spend because of fewer, shorter visits by the sailing community. It will effect the whole service industry based on this part of the tourist economy, restaurants, chandlers, shops, marinas, boatyards etc and of course those who work in it.

But, when all is said and done (and there has been much said!), it is up to the Greeks, its their country and its up to them how they run it.

I genuinely wish them luck, they don't seem to have had a lot of it in recent years!

 

[sailaboutvic]

It's

Although the sample size is pitifully small and almost certainly not representative it's interesting that a fraction over 90% of those who already keep their boats in Greece will continue to do so and 40% of those not in Greece but intending to come will still do so. I think that, within the limits of this poll, that supports the Greek government's contention that there will be no mass exodus of visiting boats because of this tax, and those boats that do leave will be replaced by others visiting for the first time.

Tony my old mate , all ways good to spar with you , Smile ,
How do you come to make such a statement . For a start if I wintered out in Greece and had to pay the tax for this year off course I would stay no point leaving , but it does mean I would still be there at the end of the year or there next year ,
Where are you getting your figures from ? This poll ? ( 60 odd boats)
if not , Are you Including the Greek own boats in you 90% because if you was , lets face it again if I was Greek and was using my boat week end I too wouldn't be moving my boat .
There are some people who still have Business in the UK and other who just come out for some weeks as there are still working and earning an income , so a few hundred isn't going to make any different to them one way or the other , but for the people who are on an budget and may are the a very different picture.

Personal I think that Greek business have more to lost and if they lost income thats less taxes they pay , in all in the end of the day this tax will only do more harm then good for everyone .

The people on this forum who are jumping up and down defend the tax and saying they will stay in greece are nearly all British , most of all the other EU sailor are saying bollx to the tax , I am not say what it say for us Brits .

I hoping there will be a big mass exit from Greece and then the government will hit this stupid tax on the head before it kills many business in Greece and everyone can get back to cruising .

The fact is until the end of this season no one will really know what effect it going to have on Greece .

 

[Tony Cross]

Tony my old mate , all ways good to spar with you , Smile ,
How do you come to make such a statement . For a start if I wintered out in Greece and had to pay the tax for this year off course I would stay no point leaving , but it does mean I would still be there at the end of the year or there next year ,
Where are you getting your figures from ? This poll ? ( 60 odd boats)
if not , Are you Including the Greek own boats in you 90% because if you was , lets face it again if I was Greek and was using my boat week end I too wouldn't be moving my boat .
There are some people who still have Business in the UK and other who just come out for some weeks as there are still working and earning an income , so a few hundred isn't going to make any different to them one way or the other , but for the people who are on an budget and may are the a very different picture.

Personal I think that Greek business have more to lost and if they lost income thats less taxes they pay , in all in the end of the day this tax will only do more harm then good for everyone .

The people on this forum who are jumping up and down defend the tax and saying they will stay in greece are nearly all British , most of all the other EU sailor are saying bollx to the tax , I am not say what it say for us Brits .

I hoping there will be a big mass exit from Greece and then the government will hit this stupid tax on the head before it kills many business in Greece and everyone can get back to cruising .

The fact is until the end of this season no one will really know what effect it going to have on Greece .

The figures I used, as I hoped I made clear(?), came from this poll. The 90% who are here and will stay comes from the 31 who will stay plus the 3 who will not (thus 34 respondents with boats in Greece and 31 is 91% of that). I concede (and indeed said so) that this poll is neither statistically significant nor representative of all the visiting boats in Greece. But I still found that number (90% staying) interesting.

You're right of course that nobody knows what will happen after this year. However, I understand that the survey on which this tax is based estimated around 30,000 taxable boats in Greece, I have seen estimates that the number of visiting boats is unlikely to be more that 10% of this number, so even if every foreign boat left that wouldn't of itself be likely to kill the tax I don't think. Yes, if that happened there would be hardship in several areas of Greece that depend on visiting boats, but I doubt that's something the Greek government has even tried to quantify. It's also almost certainly true as others have mentioned elsewhere on here that their total spend each year will remain pretty constant so the cost of the tax will come out of the pockets of Greek bars, tavernas and chandlers who will see a lower income because of this tax.

But when all that is said and done the Greek government is committed to raising €20million per year from this tax and this is part of a package of measures required by the troika of lenders. I think it would take some very serious opposition from within Greece to stand any chance of killing this tax and as far as I know that sort of opposition has not materialised (the tax was designed to reduce internal opposition apparently).

I have become convinced that it's time to stop kidding ourselves that foreign boats threatening to leave Greece stands any chance of stopping the tax. As I mentioned, I seriously doubt whether all foreign boats actually leaving Greece would stop the tax.

 

[sailaboutvic]

The figures I used, as I hoped I made clear(?), came from this poll. The 90% who are here and will stay comes from the 31 who will stay plus the 3 who will not (thus 34 respondents with boats in Greece and 31 is 91% of that). I concede (and indeed said so) that this poll is neither statistically significant nor representative of all the visiting boats in Greece. But I still found that number (90% staying) interesting.

You're right of course that nobody knows what will happen after this year. However, I understand that the survey on which this tax is based estimated around 30,000 taxable boats in Greece, I have seen estimates that the number of visiting boats is unlikely to be more that 10% of this number, so even if every foreign boat left that wouldn't of itself be likely to kill the tax I don't think. Yes, if that happened there would be hardship in several areas of Greece that depend on visiting boats, but I doubt that's something the Greek government has even tried to quantify. It's also almost certainly true as others have mentioned elsewhere on here that their total spend each year will remain pretty constant so the cost of the tax will come out of the pockets of Greek bars, tavernas and chandlers who will see a lower income because of this tax.

But when all that is said and done the Greek government is committed to raising €20million per year from this tax and this is part of a package of measures required by the troika of lenders. I think it would take some very serious opposition from within Greece to stand any chance of killing this tax and as far as I know that sort of opposition has not materialised (the tax was designed to reduce internal opposition apparently).

I have become convinced that it's time to stop kidding ourselves that foreign boats threatening to leave Greece stands any chance of stopping the tax. As I mentioned, I seriously doubt whether all foreign boats actually leaving Greece would stop the tax.

Oh dear I forgot to say happy new year , and long may our sparing days continual .
It raining again in Sicily .

 

[Tony Cross]

Oh dear I forgot to say happy new year , and long may our sparing days continual .
It raining again in Sicily .

Happy New Year to you too! It's chilly here on Crete but dry.

 

[BrianH]

I have become convinced that it's time to stop kidding ourselves that foreign boats threatening to leave Greece stands any chance of stopping the tax. As I mentioned, I seriously doubt whether all foreign boats actually leaving Greece would stop the tax.

I agree that whatever anyone says or does there will be no early remission of the tax, if at all. It already exists in law, only the enforcement details are pending. However, Greece has no good track record of implementing any sort of revenue gathering from visiting yachts - will this new imposition ever get to a workable stage?

We have all been looking at this new tax from our individual viewpoints. By far the most are naturally concerned for their long-term status and its costs, usually those who live aboard - sometime or not in a marina - and those who lay up ashore over winter and return for periods in the summer. Both those conditions are different and people are waiting for clarification. I am more interested in the transient status for a sub-12 metre yacht - a short-term visitor, just passing through and being unhappy at paying a year's tax for a few weeks in the islands. I am no evader of any of my financial commitments, ever, but I cannot help but wonder if this tax can really be adequately controlled for my class of visitor.

As Italy and Croatia have found, policing such payment is expensive in itself. Both countries have long had formidable mechanisms and resources for doing so, Italy with its Guardia di Finanza, Croatia with its Marine Policija - indeed the latter has been regularly augmented with larger and better equipped vessels over the years but it is still rare to see one making its rounds of spot vignette checks among the summer visitors in an anchorage. They have now cancelled the need for the vignette and its resultant patrols for observance. Italy has more of a record of checking but even they have rescinded the tax law on foreign boats. Neither country really has the financial resources to fully support visiting boat taxation controls; it is only when a yacht enters a port or marina that a chance exists to check for relevant payment of fees.

Greece, with its mainland and many islands within the Ionian and Aegean Seas has a coastline that would be very difficult to police during the summer months, especially if a boat keeps to the less populated islands. Will they really be able to afford to do it with any efficiency? Or perhaps they do not care, they will be happy to net only a few conspicuous fat-cats and the whole matter will be the usual, rather laissez-faire, one that it always was.

 

[Norman_E]

I would have gone for short trips into Greece from my base in Turkey this year, but at 14.15 metres I will not do so, especially as it still seems unclear whether the monthly rate allows you to pay for just one month, or whether the full year becomes payable at the monthly rate.

 

[sailaboutvic]

maybe someone should send this poll to the Greek government ,
Just with the 28 people who said there not going or leaving at a rate of 500 Euros a months over the six month summer periods they already lost Greek business over 84,000 euros , so it make a bit of a mock of their sum of collecting 20,000 euros in tax .
Another case of if you have a boat you have plenty of dosh , lets rid you of some of it . Too late Greece owning a boat has already done that to us all .

 

[Tony Cross]

I agree that whatever anyone says or does there will be no early remission of the tax, if at all. It already exists in law, only the enforcement details are pending. However, Greece has no good track record of implementing any sort of revenue gathering from visiting yachts - will this new imposition ever get to a workable stage?

We have all been looking at this new tax from our individual viewpoints. By far the most are naturally concerned for their long-term status and its costs, usually those who live aboard - sometime or not in a marina - and those who lay up ashore over winter and return for periods in the summer. Both those conditions are different and people are waiting for clarification. I am more interested in the transient status for a sub-12 metre yacht - a short-term visitor, just passing through and being unhappy at paying a year's tax for a few weeks in the islands. I am no evader of any of my financial commitments, ever, but I cannot help but wonder if this tax can really be adequately controlled for my class of visitor.

As Italy and Croatia have found, policing such payment is expensive in itself. Both countries have long had formidable mechanisms and resources for doing so, Italy with its Guardia di Finanza, Croatia with its Marine Policija - indeed the latter has been regularly augmented with larger and better equipped vessels over the years but it is still rare to see one making its rounds of spot vignette checks among the summer visitors in an anchorage. They have now cancelled the need for the vignette and its resultant patrols for observance. Italy has more of a record of checking but even they have rescinded the tax law on foreign boats. Neither country really has the financial resources to fully support visiting boat taxation controls; it is only when a yacht enters a port or marina that a chance exists to check for relevant payment of fees.

Greece, with its mainland and many islands within the Ionian and Aegean Seas has a coastline that would be very difficult to police during the summer months, especially if a boat keeps to the less populated islands. Will they really be able to afford to do it with any efficiency? Or perhaps they do not care, they will be happy to net only a few conspicuous fat-cats and the whole matter will be the usual, rather laissez-faire, one that it always was.

What you say may be true, the problem for those who come out to their boats for only a few weeks in the year is that if you are caught having not paid the tax (and I accept it might be a big if) then your few weeks sailing will be ruined if your boat is detained. If it's arrested you'll have to get off it until such times as it's released. It might be a very unpleasant experience. Would you want to take that risk?

maybe someone should send this poll to the Greek government ,
Just with the 28 people who said there not going or leaving at a rate of 500 Euros a months over the six month summer periods they already lost Greek business over 84,000 euros , so it make a bit of a mock of their sum of collecting 20,000 euros in tax .
Another case of if you have a boat you have plenty of dosh , lets rid you of some of it . Too late Greece owning a boat has already done that to us all .

It's 20 million Euros they plan to raise from this tax, annually.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I stand corrected , I missed out three Zero , two much vino , that's my excuse , not sure who ever thought this tax was a good way to help Greece excuse is .

 

[Tony Cross]

I stand corrected , I missed out three Zero , two much vino , that's my excuse , not sure who ever thought this tax was a good way to help Greece excuse is .

I don't think the tax is designed to help Greece either. I think it's designed to help keep Greece afloat without requiring her EU partners to give her any more money, and they need to keep Greece afloat to protect their darling the Euro. I have never believed that the troika of lenders have Greece's best interests at heart, their goal is to save and protect the Euro. I honestly think that if Greece could be cast adrift without risking the collapse of the Euro they would do that in a heartbeat.

 

[BrianH]

What you say may be true, the problem for those who come out to their boats for only a few weeks in the year is that if you are caught having not paid the tax (and I accept it might be a big if) then your few weeks sailing will be ruined if your boat is detained. If it's arrested you'll have to get off it until such times as it's released. It might be a very unpleasant experience. Would you want to take that risk?

Of course not, but your example is not one that I was postulating; such boats will have been kept and accessed where control will be possible and easily focussed. My speculation was on the itinerant visitor prepared to by-pass conventional reporting to a port of entry. And no, I wouldn't do that either, as you seem to be asking me personally, I would not feel comfortable or relaxed no matter how high the odds would be in my favour of no control. But for sure, many would.

 

[Tony Cross]

Of course not, but your example is not one that I was postulating; such boats will have been kept and accessed where control will be possible and easily focussed. My speculation was on the itinerant visitor prepared to by-pass conventional reporting to a port of entry. And no, I wouldn't do that either, as you seem to be asking me personally, I would not feel comfortable or relaxed no matter how high the odds would be in my favour of no control. But for sure, many would.

Ok, now I understand. And I wasn't asking you personally, I was using "you" as the general you because I'm not posh enough to say "one".

 

[Retired in Crete]

I think it's designed to help keep Greece afloat without requiring her EU partners to lend her any more money, and they need to keep Greece afloat to protect their darling the Euro. I have never believed that the troika of lenders have Greece's best interests at heart, their goal is to save and protect the Euro. I honestly think that if Greece could be cast adrift without risking the collapse of the Euro they would do that in a heartbeat.

Agree 100%. I have just made one small correction.

John

 

[Little_Legs]

Currently living in Greece. We're renting an apartment for a while to see if we enjoy it here before bringing our boat round.