Botnia31 vs Paragon31 vs others

[longseacove]

Am new to this so please be gentle!!

Looking for something for a novice. Ideally around 10m for day+occasional weekend cruising in Solent. Prefer wheelhouse/trawler styling to sportsboat.

Other criteria are:
Super safe (walk-around) for young family.
V good handling and sea worthyness.
A bit of space and privacy, ie 2 cabins.
Good / comfortable 20-25nt cruising speed.
Budget approx £200k.

Botnia and Paragon seem like obvious choices but both attract a bit of a premium price tag. Anyone looked at both of them and got a view? Is the price prem justified over something like a Nordstar or Blackwater Seastorm??

Thanks.

 

[Nick_H]

I walk past the Paragon 31 every time I go to the Windy. I love that boat, I think it looks fab, by all accounts it handles really well, and that raised driving position is the perfect compromise for flybridge type visibility without small flybridge top heavy feel. The interior is smallish, even more so than other walkaround boats, but they make good use of the space with some clever arrangements. Paragon are part of the Nimbus group, so probably great build quality, certainly looks it from the pontoon. Downsides are the price, and like all boats of this type, limited outdoor space.

They seem to be forever cleaning it, so I assume they have a fair number of potential buyers come to look at it, but having said they've had it quite a while so maybe a cheeky offer is in order. If you get it, can I have a go please!

 

[jhr]

The Paragon and the Botnia are both serious heavy weather boats so they are compromised in other respects; they are also both fabulous, but if your cruising is mainly going to be confined to the Solent and you want a bit of comfort, do you really need anything quite so full-on?

How about an Aquador 32? Similar provenance (and price....) but a bit less head-banging

 

[spannerman]

Interestingly I launched and did the sea trials on both an Aquador and Paragon 31 last friday!
The Aquador looks very nice has good fit and finish lots of practical details but the handling is not in the same class as the Paragon or Botnia.
The Paragon is of the usual Nimbus high build quality, but as others have said it feels a bit small inside, I am 6 ft and its a a bit of a squeeze and shuffle to get down into the aft berth, the driving seat is excellent being adjustable and on sprung dampers but there is an annoying little triangular footplate as you come in the pilot door, which is neither step or foot rest. It has 2 wipers per side but the arcs seem to be in the wrong place.
I noticed that it threw up a lot of water sideways from the hull when under way, and it has a very deep V hull, which is good for rough weather but saps top speed, this had a D6 370hp and only did 32 kts.
I have tested most Botnias up to the 44 and in serious heavy weather and although they are not as fancy as the other two the hull is probably the best, it gives an incredibly soft ride into head seas at full speed, its solid and practical like a Land Rover.
So I would sum up, Aquador for stylish family cruising, Paragon for offshore trips and pose value, and the Botnia if you want the best handling and aren't so bothered about looks.

 

[longseacove]

thanks for the views. i did a short sea trial (in decent chop) in the botnia a couple of weeks ago and was really impressed with the way the boat performed. i actually quite like the exterior trawler styling but thought the interior was pretty dated. i am looking at a paragon later this week and was hoping for similar performance and handling but a better accomodation. maybe i'll be disappointed!! anyone seen/tried nordstar or blackwater seastorm - they are cheaper!

 

[spannerman]

thanks for the views. i did a short sea trial (in decent chop) in the botnia a couple of weeks ago and was really impressed with the way the boat performed. i actually quite like the exterior trawler styling but thought the interior was pretty dated. i am looking at a paragon later this week and was hoping for similar performance and handling but a better accomodation. maybe i'll be disappointed!! anyone seen/tried nordstar or blackwater seastorm - they are cheaper!

Yes we sell Northstar and Minor also, and have just delivered a Minor 34 with two D6's to our harbour police who ran a Botnia for 10yrs, they love it as its a bit more modern looking inside and out. Its a good hull but I am not convinced its is as good as the Botnia, that really sets the bench mark in this type of boat.
Have also deliverd a Northstar 46 with IPS, its lovely inside, but the IPS was a bit unpredictable and snatchy in close quarters manouvering and it had the typical IPS excessive heel in turns, but drove well in a straight line in head seas.
And last week we delivered a Nortstar 26 which was OK but the side decks were too narrow to turn around on, I think once you get below 28-30 ft these wheelhouse boats get a bit cramped as the cabin isn't using the full width of the hull as in more conventional boats and the pilot doors can be awkward for taller people.

 

[gjgm]

Am new to this so please be gentle!!

Looking for something for a novice. Ideally around 10m for day+occasional weekend cruising in Solent. Prefer wheelhouse/trawler styling to sportsboat.

Other criteria are:
Super safe (walk-around) for young family.
V good handling and sea worthyness.
A bit of space and privacy, ie 2 cabins.
Good / comfortable 20-25nt cruising speed.
Budget approx £200k.

Botnia and Paragon seem like obvious choices but both attract a bit of a premium price tag. Anyone looked at both of them and got a view? Is the price prem justified over something like a Nordstar or Blackwater Seastorm??

Thanks.

The style of the boat always has a heavy hand in the buying decision, but if you are unfamiliar with boating, I would just question if you need such rough weather handling if you expect some milder day boating. Yes, anyone can be caught out by the sea, but I suspect most people take a look at the forecasts and decide its a go/no go.. with no-go being the case if its looking dodgy unless there is some dire urgency. Perhaps you and your will love the thrill of tough conditions, but many people (kids,wives etc?) dont find the macho stuff that entertaining, to put it mildly. You dont need long out in the rough stuff before you start to wish you were somewhere else!
It sounds like your aim is some family fun on the water, with some shorter overnight options- as opposed to perhaps 2 weeks onboard. That being the case I think I'd look a bit more at the practical way you would use the boat..I think the look of the boats you mention is great. I m not sure you really need that offshore ability, and I think you might find its not really a family day out sort of boat.
Just as a contrast, have a look at the Windy Scirocco sort of layout; its not the only boat in that format,(just the only one I m familiar with) but I think that sort of thing might be far more use and enjoyable. Or Aquadors , as already mentioned.
Oh, and yes, Scandi boats tend to be good at the thing you are interested in.. just the build quality and volumes made always mean premium product !

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I'll second spannerman. I took a good look at the SB Minor http://www.minor.fi/index.html at the Dusseldorf show recently and was v impressed. Same kind of rufty tufty boat as the Botnia but a bit more comfy and modern inside plus I think they're a bit cheaper than the Botnia. I also looked at the Nordstar and I have to say that the build quality doesn't appear to be up to the same level as the other two. The Paragon looks awful pricey to me for what you get.
One thing I would say is that I don't believe the hype that these boats sell like hot cakes on the secondhand market. They are expensive to buy new and therefore tend to be expensive when they reach the secondhand market which IMHO limits their appeal to the secondhand buyer. However as a go anywhere family boat, I think they're hard to beat. Personally I would much rather have one of these than a mainstream 31ft sports cruiser

 

[Al Dickson]

Nordstar vs Targa vs Paragon & Aquador

Its hard to see past the capabilities of Botnia Targa - although they are more expensive and quite dated looking (though they appear to be trying to catch up a bit with a new "comfort forecabin" and heads coming for the 35 but we are talking well over 300k new) they do the job superbly and have good residual values.

We started off a couple of years ago looking at Aquador but the used examples we saw had not worn well, had no flybridge and and the high gloss cherry interior was not my thing at all.

We also had a look at Nimbus - beautiful boats, nearly decided to go for a Commander - clever use of space but had a single engine and viz from the helm not our cup of tea.

Main thing with both was Neither Aquador nor Nimbus had resonable sized gunwhales to make them super safe walkrounds and the side doors were tiny.

Looked at the Paragon 28 - loved the contemporary design just a bit small and lightweight with a single engine.

We ended up buying a Nordstar 31 which to our mind (and more importantly SWMBO's) was much less dated inside than Botnia Targas and also came with loads of extras plus was 20% cheaper.

She ran very well, in fact her 40knot capability was something we only used once or twice, but as with all pilot house boats you sacrifice a lot of internal space for the walkaround decks - so at 31ft LOA and about 28ft hull length we soon felt she was very small for us, 2 kids & 2 mutts for anything more than a couple of nights.

If you compare a Nordstar 31 and a Targa 31 the Targa is much much bigger - this difference in hull size and volume may go some way to explaining the price differential.

Also at 5 ton displacement and with a couple of Volvo 260's at the back she did behave more speedboat than cruiser and needed a bit of a shove to get her on the plane. Having said that she was well appointed and good value for money - you could perhaps get a brand new one for £200k www.fym.co.uk

We got a good offer for her after one season and started looking bigger(as you do)

The next Nordstar up is a 40 but there is a new 37 coming out without a flybridge - its over 300k www.nordstar.fi

The new paragon 31 looks fab but not enough of a jump up size wise and still only one motor - still love the design maybe they will build a 35 with twins soon !

A Targa 31 would have been fine but again we felt we wanted to keep the next one for a few years so decided to go up a lot rather than a little - it can get a bit rough up here so we need waterline length & displacement/weight when SWMBO is having her gin at anchor or on the mooring.

Were now looking at a secondhand Botina Targa 35 - they are pretty conservative inside but I guess that way they never date - Wessex did a sea trial for me back on a snotty November afternoon and it was amazing compared to the Nordstar (albeit the 35 is massive by comparison) - perhaps its true what they say though ... all the others are just copies !!!

Trouble is finding one - new you are looking at the end of 2011 and secondhand are dissappearing to Europe fast with the exchange rate situation.

 

[whisper]

Am new to this so please be gentle!!

Looking for something for a novice. Ideally around 10m for day+occasional weekend cruising in Solent. Prefer wheelhouse/trawler styling to sportsboat.

Other criteria are:
Super safe (walk-around) for young family.
V good handling and sea worthyness.
A bit of space and privacy, ie 2 cabins.
Good / comfortable 20-25nt cruising speed.
Budget approx £200k.

Botnia and Paragon seem like obvious choices but both attract a bit of a premium price tag. Anyone looked at both of them and got a view? Is the price prem justified over something like a Nordstar or Blackwater Seastorm??

I found it interesting looking around the Paragon, being a Targa owner.
It was far more modern looking and seemed more stylish/plush inside, though it seemed a bit more cramped. It also seemed to be well finished in the bits you can see. Mind you it's the finish and strength of the bits you can't see that are more important.
It also only comes with a single engine (I think), whereas the Targa can have two. The latter may make one feel more secure but I'm not sure how important it is in real safety terms One engine is obviously cheaper to maintain and will probably have more room in the engine bay so will be easier to work on.

I got the feeling that the Paragon would appeal to a younger buyer who perhaps has tired of getting soaked in his big RIB.

I'd be happy to be given either of them.

Mind you, as gjgm says they both have limited accomodation in comparison with Aquador/Nimbus. You may find that better living quarters is in fact more important in real life than the ability to handle rough weather. You or your crew may find the latter, at least, very uncomfortable, at worst, bleedin frightening.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

 

[BartW]

anyone seen/tried nordstar or blackwater seastorm - they are cheaper!

Blackwater was a interesting discovery at last years SIBS, but very basic, more "work" style of boat, at attractive pricing, with Yamaha Sterndrive !
No real experience, but I liked this boat.

have you had a look at Karnic, does more or less what you want,
I am very happy with my 2660 (29ftloa)
but now they have a new 2760 and 2960 in their range.

good luck with your surch