Bore glazing again

[Twister_Ken]

This bore is glazing over

Shouldn't bore glazing be regarded as flag etiquette or raggies vs stinkies? Not a subject for polite conversation.

Please wake me when the thread is dead.

PS. When I run my engine for no good reason except the odd spark or two, I put it in gear, on the premise that a) it does no harm and b) it makes the barnacles living uninvited on my prop dizzy.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[Robin]

Re: Stand by for incoming

Thats why I said we are coming from a different perspective. We need our engine very little once clear of harbour or anchorage so the alternative power options are attractive. Amongst other things like autopilot, plotters etc. we also run a big fridge continuously but have biggish battery banks and with wind and solar power can usually cover the demand but even at 80% it prolongs the number of days significantly before any other charging becomes necessary. Usually before then we have run the engine anyway if only to move location.

We bought our 110W Spanish made solar panel in France where it was cheaper, £450 I think but then the £ was stronger then.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[brianhumber]

Re: So you agree then

Agree yes, in very old engines that have have this mode of operation for many years.
Once the rate of leakage past the rings/bore requires the starting speed to be raised to get to the compression ignition temp then the starting problems begin and warming the intake air gets less and less effective, but you should be noting the blue smoke on start up and high crankcase breather pressure well before any such starting problems difficulties.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[timevans2000]

Re: Stand by for incoming

My uncle has a Nissan Patrol diesel with 330,000 miles on it. Ok it smokes a bit but it sits on tick over all day in the haulage yard. It has never had an engine rebuild. The point is it takes one hell of a lot of use before running on tick over causes problems.
Being moored next to somebody who runs the engine regularly for charging is not as pleasant as soembody who doesnt! It is not the end of the world but most of us sail cos we like to be close to nature, scenary, traveling, adventure,etc. If we wanted to polute the world we would have bought a power boat. I try to minimise the use of my engine as it seems to be the right thing to do. I have 130 watts of solar power and a Duogen. I have never run the engine for charging.
I have just stripped down the Yanmar 3 cylinder to check its condition. It looks like a complete rust ball externally but even at 22 years old the engine is in excellent condition internally. The starter motor and alternator need rebuilding but everything else is ok. The engine is raw water cooled and some of the smaller waterways in the head were blocked by crud. I am sure this engine has done its fair share of running at idle in the past but it does not seem to have suffered.


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[vyv_cox]

I agree with Ken. Scuttlebutt is not the forum for serious discussion on this vital topic.

Since the last round in this epic struggle I have been accumulating some information. My conclusion (I think) is that the subject is far more complex than the simplistic treatment given on the Internet and in Sailing Today would suggest. I fully support Stu's statement, and that of others, that many engines tick over for much of their lives without evident damage to bores. Here's what I found. Answer may be that it depends on the oil, age and condition of engine and other things.

Bore glazing and bore polishing
These are not the same thing. These definitions and statements are derived from a multitude of sources.

Bore Glazing - A phenomenon that results in loss of oil consumption control. Bore glazing as contrasted to bore polishing is characterised by a deposit or coating on the bore/liner of the engine. Bore glazing is believed to occur at low speed and light load operations.

Glazing - Blow-by in new engines. Exhaust gases passing piston rings in newly built or re-built bores can reacts with oil and wear products, forming a golden-coloured varnish glaze through which the bore honing marks are visible. Lugger Trawlers, Seattle, Washington.

Sabb L Diesel Operator’s handbook. - Long periods of light or no-load running early in the engine’s life may lead to cylinder bore glazing and high lub oil consumption.

Lister-Petter X90 Operator’s Handbook - Long periods of light or no-load running early in the engine’s life may lead to cylinder bore glazing and high lub oil consumption. (surprising similarity of wording!)
___________________________________________

Bore Polishing
Characterised by a clearly defined area of bright mirror finish on the cylinder bore. It is caused by local mechanical wear of the surface, resulting in loss of oil consumption control. Believed to be brought about by build up of carbon deposits in the ring area.

Under-loading of the engine will cause a high wear rate due to incomplete fuel combustion and loss of lubrication, resulting in cylinder bore glazing and fouling of exhaust ports and valves, along with insurmountable amounts of exhaust pollution. Proper and controlled loading is therefore essential. It increases diesel engine life by up to four times and improves the efficiency by ensuring that the engine has sufficient loading at all times.

Lister manual. - You should note that use of incorrect oils in lightly loaded engines especially Lister LT 1 and TS/TR can lead to problems with bore glazing. All except the CE and JP may also use multigrade oils of API CC specification (or CD if operating at high load). Note: the LPW series engines should not be run on CD specification oils - these are known to cause bore glazing.

Morris Vintage engines advice: Depending upon engine design and use I have become convinced that there is an arguable case that if the engine manufacturer specified an API grade of CC/CD, then using a modern oil of (say) API CE/CF may well cause oil burning problems and cylinder bore glazing. If your engine specifies a CC/CD oil then use one, either use an engine manufacturer's (liable to be sold at a premium), one from a national, reputable motor factors (Partco.), or one form a specialist oil supplier (Morris).

Reading College marine course - Generally, the amount of fuel delivered to an engine rated for continuous duty operation is lower at a given rpm than it would be for the same engine rated for high output. Putting the same amount of load on each of these engine types inevitably means the higher rated engine is going to be running at a lower percentage of its available output at any given rpm. This can lead to over-fuelling, carbon deposition and even cylinder bore glazing, which can lead to ring damage.

Castrol - Castrol technical advice is not to use modern hi-tech multigrades in old engines and particularly boat engines which remain at static revs for long periods. The problem appears to be bore glazing which modern engines are less prone to especially in automotive applications where the revs are variable. High quality (and therefore at a price) monograde oil would be my advice.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Robin]

Well researched Vyv, that should glaze a few tins of Fray Bentos Pot Noodles. :0)

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Sybarite]

The last time this came up I wondered about the parallel in car/lorry engines. So I'll raise my point again. You never hear of this problem : about the impact on the engines blocked in traffic jams..?

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Stand by for incoming

|If you dont want to pollute the world, I suggest you get rid of your engine, batteries etc etc completly, I dont suppose you use dacron sails do you?. Get down off your high horse.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[timevans2000]

Re: Stand by for incoming

I am not sure which part of my post was offensive to you. I am not on any high horse!!You missed the point. We all pollute the world. It takes more energy to make the average car than that car ever uses in fuel during its life. All I am saying is that I chose to minimise the pollution I put directly into the atmosphere when I sail. I am not sure why you have to be ofensive. You are obviously a little sensative or you wouldnt react in such a way.

One of the attraction of sailing for me is the peace and quiet. I even have a large rig to carry more sail so I can sail when the wind is lighter. If you chose to use your engine that is up to you. I dont have any problem with that. It is your decision and you have every right to do so.

ps if I was on a high horse I would run a green car, shop at Oxfam and eat mung beans. Incidently, Sonsy Lass is my neighbour and good mate of mine. Fortunately his boat is behind mine so his exhaust points the other way. I dont hear his engine running.

Regards



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[AndrewB]

Err, you\'re not taking the p***, Vyv?

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

<font size=1>Scuttlebutt is not the forum for serious discussion on this vital topic.</font size=1>

<hr></blockquote>

Hey, bore glazing, what could be more vital than that? /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

I wouldn't give a great deal more credence to self-appointed "experts" in yottie mags than I do to the accumulated wisdom here.

Some of the "expert wisdom" in boating turns out to be regurgitated mythology, or, with hindsight, no more than a current fad. Here, each of us may have less individual knowledge, but put together it adds up. And what does become clear here, which "experts" rarely admit to, is that often there is no really cut-and-dried answer to a question.

We all have to decide what, and who, to believe. After sifting out the nuggets from the dross, I've learnt more of real value on these boards than from all the magazine "experts".

 

[Heckler]

Re: Stand by for incoming

uuhm forgot to say have fitted a supa dupa regulator, as for bore glazing, its a myth
stu

<hr width=100% size=1>http://www.beneteau-owners-association.org.uk

 

[Heckler]

ta for your concurrence, used to look after all sorts of diesels in africa, oil and all filters changed every 5000 klicks or hourly equivalent, they ran for ever
stu

<hr width=100% size=1>http://www.beneteau-owners-association.org.uk

 

[Heckler]

yup!!
but we knew we were right all along, us old mobikers started young (in my case cause i couldnt afford to pay to have it done) and then went on to the university of life in the oil field, if you didnt get it right there they fired your hi priced a**e!
stu

<hr width=100% size=1>http://www.beneteau-owners-association.org.uk

 

[Heckler]

cutting thru all the research one thing does come out of this, if one persists in running an air cooled or direct raw water cooled engine at lo speeds, it could in theory not reach a decent operating temp either quickly enough or not at all, in cases such as that then i concede that damage could indded be caused by running at slow unloaded speeds, indeed i am convinced that that is why and where the urban myth has come from.
stu

<hr width=100% size=1>http://www.beneteau-owners-association.org.uk

 

[MainlySteam]

Very good post.

On the subject of oil grades the following may be of interest.

When our boat was new and had only had about 50 hours on the engine I had to leave it in another port for a few months. At the 50 hour service, just before we left the boat, the engine manufacturer's dealer had replaced the oil with a synthetic. Over the months before I could go and get the boat a friend ran the engine weekly for me against a load (the dock) but towards the end of the period reported that blue smoke had appeared. Before I went to pick the boat up I got the yard, which I knew well as they built the boat, to lift the boat for antifouling. The manager reported that there was heavy blue smoke as he bought the boat from its berth and that he had run the boat out to sea for an hour or so with no change.

I got the yard to change the oil for a CE grade (CD is hard to get here in reputable brands) and leave the boat unrun on their dock for me to pick up. Within a few minutes of running with the conventional oil there was no smoke and on the delivery trip home we motored the first 120 miles hard. Never been a problem since.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: This bore is glazing over

It's quite a good idea to run the engine for however long it takes your maiden aunt to use the heads, otherwise she'll be in there all day, terrified someone will hear her.
You do have a maiden aunt?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[alec]

I find a good belt of Ajax Powder down the air intake is an efficient answer to bore glazing. The old ways are always the best.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Stand by for incoming

I suggest you re-read your post, especially the little snippet of "if I wanted to pollute the earth, I would buy a motor boat" Thats what I found a little offensive. I did not mean to be offensive to you, just trying to make a point, sorry if it came out that way. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[dk]

Re: Stand by for incoming

Robin
Have you ever sat in an anchorage where someone was running an Airmarine, or Windbugger wind generator at full tilt - much noisier than a diesel running at 1,500rpm in my experience. Also, engines are only run for a max of 2-3 hours to charge even with automotive regulators, and shut down at night unlike many wind gennies!
Duncan

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Stand by for incoming

well said that man! If you complain, you normally get, either no answer or "you stinkies make much more noise" or abuse or they are not aboard for days!

<hr width=100% size=1>