Boats to be registered in Ireland

[Tranona]

Maybe not, but the legislation now exists, as OldHarry has pointed out. I would not bet on them being put off by cost of implementation; after PFI and many other cockups, it is quite clear that politicians, civil srvants and consultants are all prepared to fudge the numbers to justify whatever they want to do, and protecting citizens from enjoying their freedom seems high on their list of precautionary nannying policies - all strictly in our own best interests, of course. Also, now that the MMO exists, it must have something to do, and widening its own remit to increase its staff numbers, budget, influence and, quite coincidentally of course, the salary grade of its chief executive, is an important part of that. BobPrell's take on the Aussie experience should give us all pause for serious thought.

Government has always had the option to set up a system of registration. There is nothing in the new legislation that makes it any easier. One of the difficulties is that there is no single definition of what registration is. There are (at least) 5 different purposes of register.

1 Register of title (as in current Part 1)

2 Register if ships nationality (as in Part 3 SSR and Part 1)

3 Identification for safety reasons (similar to the current voluntary CG66)

4 Identification for purposes of raising tax

5 Identification for ensuring compliance with appropriate laws including bye laws.

The Irish proposals seem to indicate that they want to cover the first 3, but doing that would also allow the last two - which is what concerns many people.

It would be a real challenge to design a registration system that would satisfy all those purposes, never mind implementing it given the huge number of unregistered boats that are already in existence.

Given the current government's resistance to any new legislation that expands the cost of government without an increase in income to cover it it is likely only to happen if it is forced by the EU or there is potential revenue raising.

 

[Grumpybear]

Government has always had the option to set up a system of registration. There is nothing in the new legislation that makes it any easier. One of the difficulties is that there is no single definition of what registration is. There are (at least) 5 different purposes of register.

1 Register of title (as in current Part 1)

2 Register if ships nationality (as in Part 3 SSR and Part 1)

3 Identification for safety reasons (similar to the current voluntary CG66)

4 Identification for purposes of raising tax

5 Identification for ensuring compliance with appropriate laws including bye laws.

The Irish proposals seem to indicate that they want to cover the first 3, but doing that would also allow the last two - which is what concerns many people.

It would be a real challenge to design a registration system that would satisfy all those purposes, never mind implementing it given the huge number of unregistered boats that are already in existence.

Given the current government's resistance to any new legislation that expands the cost of government without an increase in income to cover it it is likely only to happen if it is forced by the EU or there is potential revenue raising.

Call me cynical, but the government's stance as you describe it is at best selective, in my view. If consultants can produce figures which suggest that registration, with an appropriate fee, of course, might (a) be profitable overall and (b) be outsourced - say, to a suitable consultancy firm, don't bet on them not going for it. Past experience will carry absolutely no weight with bureaucrats.

A health and safety spin on the matter, however bogus, will carry a lot of weight, especially if backed up by a suggestion that Britain is out of line with Europe and thus clearly failing or short changing its citizens (as the BBC, Guardian, Labour Party in opportunist mode etc will be happy to claim).

What price a legal aid funded case against the government in the ECHR in a few years' time? Where there's a fee, there's a lawyer....

 

[SAWDOC]

Just to add a voice of reason.

At the moment in Ireland there is no real system of registration for small boats. If you are sailing abroad you can chance it with no papers other than your Bill of Sale and perhaps original VAT receipt. Have done so crosssing to Wales or the IOM.

You can go for the Irish Ships Register, which as the name suggests is designed for large ships. This register is intended as a proof of legal title, records mortgages and charges, and is considered to indicate VAT paid status. Unfortunately the registration process is complex and legalistic, and requires, amongst other things, a full history of ownership from build to present, including original builders certificate and Vat receipt and all Bills of Sale. It is also widely felt among yacht owners that certain registration ports are actively unfriendly to small boats, and cause undue problems for people trying to register in good faith. D'ont ask me how I know!

You can also go for registration with the Irish Sailing Association, which is cheap and cheerful, provides you with a number to stick on your stern and a nice cert, but proof of absolutely nothing other than that you might intend to wander abroad. It does fill a gap, and is welcome, but carries no guarantees. In practice will probably do in most of Europe unless you meet a really difficult official.

I have sailed from the Hebrides to the Isles of Scilly and down both sides of the channel from the Netherlands to Brittany without ever being checked, and long may that continue. The dreaded French are perhaps more welcoming of fellow celts than the RosBifs, but you never know when officialdom will decide to be difficult. This is why I am on the Ships Register for my currrent yacht.


Irish cruising sailors therefore need a registration system that will allow them to cruise the world in safety, and I would say there is good support for such a system, provided it is efficient and economic, and most important, voluntary.

All attempts to make registration compulsory or introduce e-borders type legislation should be resisted. The ISA can be expected to do a good job, but vigilance is needed.

well said.

Current system ( paper trail back to original owner) is far too cumbersome and needs improvement.

 

[BrianH]

Current system ( paper trail back to original owner) is far too cumbersome and needs improvement.

This was exactly the case with the original UK Part I - older boats were often impossible to comply, which was partly responsible for the Part III (SSR) introduction.

Then, a few years ago, the ownership proof was reduced to 5 years. I was able then myself to register my 1981 HR with four previous Dutch owners and no Bills of Sale other than my own one when I bought in 2005.

Presumably the Irish system was inherited from before the republic and it would be logical to change similarly.