Boats - Quality of build

[Gludy]

The advice given to me on the forum has been an excellent way of me gaining second hand experience but as you would expect I have to draw my own conclusions and form opinions, which albeit may easily change (every 12 hours at present) begin to form an ipionion of my own, which I then test to see if it holds out.

I know some folks think that a comment about their boat or car is a personal insult, rather than a comment about an object - I personally have no ego tied up in such objects. What my concern is always about is making the right decision for me.

Having done the intro, my conclusions so far are:-

As regards build quality:-
The Broom and Storebro boats are probably the best build quality production boats on the market.

When it comes to Fairlines/Princess/Sealine it seems to me there is not much in it.
Take Fairline for example, there are some real horror stories on this forum as to how they treat customers who have just spent over £500,000 with them - boats being deolivered with dozens of faults etc. So I so far conclude that Fairlines, despite their super caring attitude portrayed in their adverts - are not very good at back up service.
I have heard less about Princess, so I would place Princess just above Fairline.
Then their is the Sealine - I have witnessed some basic problems with a new boat of theirs being delivered, so they certainly deliver boats that are not all working - missing out the hull studs for the flybridge canopy is a rather basic blunder as is not having a boat functional when you fill up both deisel tanks - BUT Sealine acted quickly and fixed the faults very rapidly - they seem to have a better attitude towards customers than Fairline.

All businesses make mistakes - whilst I really think that many mistakes on boats should never happen to begin with, I place a lot of weight on how a company acts tp put mistakes right.

So of the three named - put Princess alongside Sealine and Fairline just underneath them both.

I would like to hear how Princess/Fairline/Sealine customers actually rate the service support of their boat builders.

I know this goes against the traditional thinking but it is how it currently appears to me unless someone knows different?

I am in the process of trying to form opinions on the other non-UK boats - at present it is too early for me to even form the tentative opinions I now hold above.



Paul

 

[JEG]

I asked a dutch broker last year how he would rate Linssens' & pedros': Linssen 8/10, Pedro 6/10. What gets 10/10 - custom built.

 

[spannerman]

Hi Gludy, I am a Brit boat mechanic working in Norway and have worked on all of the boats you have mentioned, and yes I agree the big three are much of a muchness, although I think Fairline and Princess vy for top position in Uk boats. There are two Brooms on the same pier in our local marina and when you stand bows on and look along the hull you can see where the bulkheads are as the hull dips in between each bulkhead, so I am not impressed with their mouldwork.
Have you investigated Windy or Scand boats, the Windy 32 and 37 are beautifally made and they perform well, also Norwest from Sweden are considered to be in the Rolls Royce class over here.

Regards Steve

 

[Gludy]

This is fascinating - I accept what you say about the Brooms but it seems that no matter what league table you try to create something comes up and smashes it.

I am sure the boats you mentioned are good boats but I have to be practicable in purchasing a boat and be able to select from a range that are available and that suit my requirments which are:-

Fast - cruising 24 to 26 knots top speed over 30 knots.

Fly bridge or similiar type - large outside deck area.

3 bedrooms

Well known commodity for ease of selling when that time comes. (ie low depreciation)

The chances are that I am looking for a second hand boat between 46 and 52 foot in length.

I met up with the chap who led us through some very rough water yesterday and he told me that when watching my boat (almost 40 foot) he could see the whole boat out the water at times! That has made me feel better about the general sea handling of the size/sort of boats I am looking at.

I was very sold on the Cara Marine boat and still respect it greatly but changed my mind because in the end of the day the huge uncovered cockpit area it had would not be used 98% of the time in my climate - if a system was devised to cover it, it would look like a floating tent. That combined with the possible problems in selling it (lack of it being a commodity) meant that I had to ditch that plan. The stock market being flat did not help either.

Having now decided to go for a boat within the £300k + Vat budget I am really trying to stick to well known makes. It is also why I am trying to simulate the easy handling of the jets of the Cara boat by adding a stern thruster. - something I am now sold on.

I started boating Sept 2001 with a Princess 385 - I investigated what boat to go for then and do not regret the choice - it is a fine boat and I was able to prove that I liked boating. I was also able to prove the other half could cope with it, which she does very well.

I am also glad that I learned my skills to date without bow thrusters etc. In fact I always mark the next boat to me on the pontoon by how well he berths (he is a beginner too) and I always drop him one point out of ten each time he uses the bow thruster - I cannot wait until he finds out that I have both bow and stern thusters on my next boat







Paul

 

[spannerman]

I just read with interest your requirements for a boat, and in my experience of testing boats there is nothing in the Princess, Sealine,Fairline that meets all of your specs. Flybridge boats by design are heavier ( req more power) and to get 3 cabins then you really are at 46-50ft plus. And the boats I have tested that size would at best do 28 knots flat out and cruise at 22-24. I.E. Princess 48 flybridge with 3 cabins and two Volvo 72P motors rated at 460 hp and weighed 15 tons loaded, max speed 28knots! Of course you can have larger engines but in the used market boats are usually as they were originally spec'd by the factory.
There are faster boats around i.e. Sunseeker, and the V series Princesses but these are of the open cockpit type which are not suitable for your climate. Its the law of diminishing returns, the bigger the boat the more it weighs , the more power you need the bigger the engines, the more fuel you have to carry, the heavier the boat...... And the higher the operating costs. There are some fast Italian boats around like Azimuth and Ferretti. In the end it is always a compromise.Is it strictly neccessary to have 3 cabins, as they are always filled with deckchairs,bicycles, and usually end up as extra storage for things you think you might need.

Let me know what conclusions you reach, Steve

 

[Gludy]

Thanks for the detailed response.

I am stating claimed figures:-

Princess 52 with the 600hp engines cruise at 28knts max 32/34 knots.

Sealine 51 cruise about 5/26 max 32/34 knots

I appreciate that with load on and the cold reality of day, these gigures may be a few knots over what can be achieved but am I right in thinking that such boats with the 600hp plus engines will give me mid-twenties cruising and maybe top out at 30 knots?

As regards the cabins - this is a requirment just hatched up with myself and the other half. Most of the time we will just use two cabins but we will at other times spend days out on a trip with another couple and a teenager.

Having lived on a Princess 385, we really yearn for more room and when we have quests we do not want bedding all over the saloon etc.

I have no interest in the sports type V models etc.

I am off to the boat show tomorrow to help me refine my quest.

I would appreciate any input yopu may wish to give.




Paul

 

[halcyon]

If your looking at Sealine, look at the joy stick docking system, controls engines, bow and stern thruster from one lever.

As a supplier they are a real pain in the butt over quality of components.
But having delt with Marine Projects and Fairline, at the end of the day theres not a lot of differance in build, and they all have there nightmares.

At the end of the day as you say, it's correcting anything and service that counts, you have a new boat for a day, you keep used one for years, then have to sell it.

Brian

 

[Gludy]

Yes the joystick docking system seems a very good idea - a bit better than individual controls and it incorporates the engines as well.






Paul

 

[nedmin]

So linnsen 20% better than pedro, yes but they are 80% dearer.Im on my second Pedro .First one I had 10years& no problems.This one 2years .did Holland Belgium & France 2001 .1500 miles in total no problems .Last year UK.

 

[martinwoolwich]

Joint research effort

Paul.

I'v been following all your posts with interest both with regard to the Cara Marine motor yacht, and later your posts about other boats where your requirements and needs seem pretty much the same as mine..

My situation seems very similar. I started boating for the first time in 2001 and have a Broom 38. Having learnt a lot in the past two seasons we have decided we need to change now that we have a better understanding of what this boating thing is all about.

It is true that the moment I started looking at these forums, the general view was that everyone will want to change their boat for a bigger one almost the minute they take ownership - and it really has proven to be true.

Having three kids my wife now insists on three cabins, minimum, also being a Canadian, a full size fridge. (Yup she'd actually turn a boat down just because of the fridge size). Also, because we are fairly sociable we want to be able to sleep another family of at least two parents and two kids - (That's nine!) We've got the 38 to sleep 8 but at least one more semi-decent berth would make a lot of difference to us. Dinette conversions etc are fine.

In our research over the past 9 months or so we've come down to the following.

Best bet, for us at the moment, is between Broom 450 or Atlantic 444. Both have the engineering credential as well as the physical requirements. The Atlantic/Broom type works for us because internal accomodation space, (not just sleeping), is paramount and the single aft helm position gives us more chance of getting this. Importantly, they also seem to hold their value well. We've looked at Princess, Sealine, Ferretti, Fairline, Linssen and even Sunseeker. In one way or another, we've found reasons to reject them.

From the posts I've read of yours it does seem that our requirements map each other fairly closely and I would be very interested in keeping in touch on how your are progressing with your research so we can possibly get new ideas from each other.

For those of you reading this, I was originally going to send this as a PM to Glundy but on reflection thought that this could be of interest to a wider audience - sorry if that's a mis-placed thought.

 

[tcm]

Hi gludy.

I think that for a picky person like you (and me, though i haven't followed this advice) is to buy a secondhand boat. Then you can crawl all over and test an individual physical boat, warts and all.

I think that the backup service is dependent upon individual dealers - and what they'll do. Though once out of warranty, the stuff is all fairly fixable by anyone.

I know that the professional magazine testers will know far more than me about this, but an interesting aspect is what reaction a maufactuer has to a criticism. After all, all boats have faults, some glaring, others not so.

I think Princess are beter than sealine, and sealine the same or better than fairline at eliciting response from customers and/or acting on that feedback. At a test of a Prinny V65, I pointed out that it was difficult to get down to the back cleats, and i think they changed the moulding within a day or so - there's now a little step in the rear garage doors.

Sealine value-engineer their boats, good in theory but a bit galling that 500k 50+ footer somehow "feels the same" as other much smaller. It wouldn't be hard, for example, to spend a teensy bit more on carpet rather than use foamback rubbish that is marginally better than exhibition stand carpet that gets thrown away.

Fairline should, by now, be more Mercedes-like than they are. They design great stuff in one boat, but then totally ignore it for then next model - starting with a clean sheet it seems. For example, on that flybridge squadron 58 nice steel hand holds on top of seats look smart, good safety, and keep grubby fingers off the plastic seatbacks. No sign of them on targas, and the new T52 even discontinued the sit/stand option.

Style-wise, the boat manufacturers are recognising the value of being able to recognise a princess, fairline etc from afar, like you can with cars. But a wiser person that i has said that if they design a fab dashboard, the very best that they can do...why do they design a different dashboard for the next new model?

But it's from deep down inside a boat's build, beyond the grasp of the boat testers, that a lot of us Meldrews raise their head and complain in familar fashion. You can't tell if builders have used standard or stainless steel staples to upholster the cockpit seat cushions until after they've gone a bit rusty, and then it's too late. You can't tell if they've used proper oil-resistant nitrile rubber washers on the diesel filler caps, or merely the same type as those on the water filler caps, until they start to disintegrate.

Superficially, you could try and get hold of the techie who's out on the show stand for a day who'll know much more than the salesman. Pull out the drawers, for example, see if they're jointed, see how the fine detail of the boat is put together. You'll need quite some time, I think. Sometimes invisible fixings are good, other times not. Generally, crosshead screws are better than flatheads. And so on.

As you say, I'd put Princess top of the heap. I base this in part in having talked to some guys in the factories. I get the felling that all the way down the line in Princess, there have people with boats themselves, who know what will happen if the job is done badly, and would sooner walk off the job than use the wrong materials. They'd pipe up.

Elsewhere, few factory staff and designers have owned a boat themselves. A sure-fire way of learning how do a better job is to buy a less-good product with your own money - and isn't that the trigger that starts off a new enterprise in the first place? - "I could do better myself!"

 

[Gludy]

Hi TCM
I read your post after returning from the show - an exhuasting trip that did not leave me anytime but to narrow down my boat search - I had no time to visit even one non-boat selling stand.

I find myself in 101% agreement with everyting you have said.

"I think that the backup service is dependent upon individual dealers - and what they'll do. Though once out of warranty, the stuff is all fairly fixable by anyone. "

So true and something I learnt at the show. As it happens I know some good dealers who have dealt with my Marina friends for years and have an excellent reputation - so it is not always the manufacturer - it is the dealer selling you the new boat.

At Southampton, as you know I was looking ay 60 foot boats, mainly the Cara Marine, which I admire technically but I visited other stands with some interesting results. Frankly, not to put too fine a point on it I was snobbishly almost turned away from some stands - treated a bit like a leper. I did not argue - just left. After all I was not buying then but I was in the market for a new boat by this year. Having just almost doubled my budget as a result of my trip to the show yesterday, I was in the market for a pretty substantial sum.

One dealer stood out and even though I explained my keeness on the Cara Boat spent time with me and took a long term view. I think they thought that it was thier business to establish long term contacts with me because you never knew one day - I may well ne a good customer. Their attitude really stood out amongst the crowd. As it happens this dealer was alos the one with an excelllent reputation from my friends and their long term dealings with them.

I am afraid I rejected the Sealine T51 from the list because I was dissappointed with the detail and the bedroom design of the guest cabins. Our teenager would not have be able to really sit upright on his bed. They let themsleves down with some fine design features by lack of attention to detail - so as you say, imagine the detail missing on those many small hidden things - so one of my favourites hit the dirt early on.

I also found myself wondering why the hell one good point on one boat is not transferred to the next - as it happens this was on Fairline models but it applies to many manufacturers. Both the missus and I sat down over a glass of free bubbly discussing our bewilderment as to the very point you have raised.

I enjoyed pointing out to Sealine that their list prices are higher than Princess - they did not know, checked it out and were surprised. Pointing the same out to Princess they did not know they were cheaper than Sealine and were again surprised. I amybe a bit thick but in my businesses I make sure I know what the competition is and what it is doing - not so in the Marine world, they live in individual vacumns.

"A sure-fire way of learning how do a better job is to buy a less-good product with your own money - and isn't that the trigger that starts off a new enterprise in the first place? - "I could do better myself!"

I have now entered the Marine business myself because of this. I cannot say much about it for another 12 months when it will become very public - I just could not turn down the glaring opportunities presnted by the industry.

I suppose the result of the show for me was that I decided to double my budget and have something that will please me in the longer term. I have some very, very good deals I am now considering, which make the most of a recent industry upset.

It seems things have come a long way since 18 months ago when you offered to help me, a raw novice, bring my new boat around Lands End and head into the Bristol Channel and my prevailing f4-5's.







Paul

 

[aswade]

These are the kinds of threads that make the forum invaluable to people seeking information on purchasing decisions. Kudos to you, Paul and Matt.

I've been lurking here for the better part of a year (and posting infrequently) because my employer was researching the purchase of a new 60-70 foot flybridge boat. In the past year, he has come to the exact same conclusions that you two have- and he still has not purchased a boat because there are no options that adequately address the problems if you want to purchase a European brand on the West Coast of North America.

Many British and Italian builders have their American dealers and service centers in Florida. That's three thousand miles away. Many don't even have a West Coast dealer, in fact:

Ferretti have U.S. offices in Florida and the closest dealer is in Florida.

Azimut had a semi-official relationship with a large dealer in California that hardly inspired confidence in their support, subsequently those fears have been proven correct as they have ended that relationship and have no official West Coast dealer.

Rodriguez handle their own sales and support and are in Florida.

Sunseeker's California/Florida dealer (same company in both locations) was notorious for lack of support, and perhaps because of that reputation Sunseeker have just announced that they have appointed new dealers in Florida whilst leaving California up in the air.

Fairline just appointed a California dealer last year- they are a large, multi-line, multi-location outfit, but sell mostly less expensive brands and try to sell Fairlines out of the same locations. My employer said he felt like he was at a low-end car dealership.

Broom, Atlantic and such have no presence here.

Princess have been smart in linking up with Viking. That relationship has given them a national reach in sales, marketing, support and service. Of all the options, they made the most sense out here but their flybridge models in that size range left my employer cold. Must say that the new 25m, 23m and 21m are an improvement.

Sealine have a close relationship with a Florida company. This importer is very aggressive in trying to support the brand, and my employer might have gone this route had they built a boat in the right size, but as you guys have pointed out they have a building philosophy that is the opposite of what my employer is seeking.

Perhaps because he has been exposed to the highest standards available in boats- his family own a 50m Dutch built yacht and he has been involved in the most exotic of ocean racing sailboats- he was appalled at the status quo with production builders such as those listed above. Interestingly enough, my employer is also considering getting into the marine business himself- for him it is not the financial opportunity, but more a desire to see things done the right way and to be able to have owners out here get the kind of experience that he desires in buying and owning something that costs several million dollars or more.

For their own purposes, they have decided that the only way to get what they want is to spend the money and build their own boat, and they are starting the process of a 40m or so new build at a European yard. They may still buy a smaller "fun" open boat for local use, and of the available options, the Princess/Viking Sport Cruiser V65 probably makes the most sense for the reasons listed above even though they prefer the Italian options- the new Pershing 76 is appealing to them but available delivery is too far out. Matt, how large a party can you comfortably host on your Leopard 23? What do you think is a realistic upper limit for a day-long outing, and do you think that number is significantly smaller than on a similar sized flybridge boat?

Alex

 

[JohnR]

If you want build then IMHO go for a Grand Banks.

 

[tcm]

Largest party on a day out? I understand that for most boats, and in most waters, the legal limit before you need commercial licences for passengers and so on is 12, plus crew. That means on our boat 14. Think I've had at least 9 plus crew, and it felt there was lots and lots of space. But if at a dockside, then easily three times that number. I'd say that the V65 could do the same.

I'm not a great fan of the idea of flybridge boats being party boats. You tend to have several parties, each on the separate levels. On a dockside party I had 28 on a fairline targa 48. It's not really fair on anyone to break the legal limits out at sea. For a really great party, have a dockside party after some have been out and meet up for a barbie and lots of music. Make sure you invite everyone within hearing range with nice invitations delivered the day before.

 

[aswade]

Thanks for the reply, tcm.

Not sure what the legal limits are over here. Coast Guard here seems to be less strict. My employer says that he has had more than thirty aboard for a cruise around the bay on his 85 foot ketch. Coast Guard only checks to see if you have enough life jackets for everyone aboard. They do lots of fundraising for local charities and schools and like to take groups out on day trips as part of their philanthropic efforts so the more room the better. Disadvantaged or disabled kids who've never been on a boat, reward for volunteers, fancy lunch for big donors etc. Splitting up into several groups is not a concern, in fact it might even be a welcome option.

All becomes moot once they take delivery of the 40m vessel they are building, but that's more than two years down the road. In the interim, something "fun" that they can handle with just a captain or by themselves is the idea, but for the reason above, it would be great if it had room for as many people as possible while pottering around.