Boating under the influence

[alanporter]

I have noted on this forum some discussion about introducing maximum blood alcohol restrictions for boat operators in the U.K. We have had this in Canada for quite a number of years, the limit being 0.08, the same as for driving on the roads. However, the Province of Ontario has just brought out a new law in which a boat operator being caught over the 0.08 limit will lose, not only his boat operator card, but also his car drivers licence. How about that for tough !

 

[Tisme]

When this is the boat in question I can understand it!

 

[duncan]

fortunatley we get around such issues by having the kids drive the boat home - solves everthing legally but may eventualy put up the insurance premiums.

 

[oldsaltoz]

G'day Alan,

Here in Oz you would also loose your drivers licence and a compulsory fine in some states, even if it's only only a punt with a 4 hp engine.....

Getting the kids to drive/sail home will only save you if they are also licenced.
Anything with 4 or more HP requires a licenced operator.

If you happen to be at anchor away from shore (typically this would refer to the great barrier reef) they can still charge you for being in charge of a vessel and under the influence.

Avagoodweekend......

 

[duncan]

[ QUOTE ]
Getting the kids to drive/sail home will only save you if they are also licenced.
Anything with 4 or more HP requires a licenced operator.


[/ QUOTE ] over there...............

please don't take this as a suggestion that I endorse excessive alcchol consumption with leisure boats - I don't. I do however feel that the differentiation between boats at anchor, in harbour waters or in the open sea is ridiculous.

Equally ther is no comparison between a competent mariner proceeding with care on say 100mg ie just over the car limit and a twat proceeding dangerously even if he's on 0mg

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
I do however feel that the differentiation between boats at anchor, in harbour waters or in the open sea is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]Last week, here in San Antonio harbour (Ibiza) we had a line squall at around 12 midnight and nearly all the boats anchored (as opposed to moored to buoys) dragged and ended up circling round the harbour in the pitch dark. It was pandemonium. You can't tell me that it would appropriate for people to handle their boats in those conditions, after drinking? I'm afraid that being at anchor is often little better than being under way.

 

[duncan]

that is exactly my point!

 

[Frontier]

I thought the Navy had won battles and wars while under the influence of alcohol provided by the authorities; we only have to get from A to B at a leisurely pace. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

It's not like you have pedestrians who might step out in front of you, and typically the small boater does not have the stopping distance issue like cars.

I know many can come back with all sorts of examples of things that can go wrong and that do need the skipper to be clear thinking, but there is no way that the size of any problem on the water justifies what was done on the roads.

I also do not condone drinking to excess, I have never had a drink while handling my boat, I just know that there is a long history of seafarers who have enjoyed a tot and coped perfectly competently, including professionals such as Customs, Lifeboat crews and Navy's. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Of course we will hear stories of a small number, who do get drunk, but its nowhere near the thousands they were seeing on the roads, that brought the car drink driving regulations.

 

[chuckaduck]

[ QUOTE ]
When this is the boat in question I can understand it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Saw Mr branston in one of these a cople of years ago coming out of lymington cant say We were impressed

 

[Peterduck]

One of the less obvious side-effects of drinking on board a boat is that if you accidentally go into the 'oggin [and drinking can make this more likely] then you stand a better chance of either drowning and/or certainly dying from hypothermia. This, of course, does not apply to those who have 'a tot' or a sun - downer, but those who apply themselves wholeheartedly to getting plastered. A tot won't set you over the limit, but if you are over, you are less able to avoid the above misfortunes.
Peter.

 

[William_H]

Interesting concept about being drunk when on anchor. We have a fathfull band of sailors out our club who regullarly get a total skinfull in the bar in the safe knowledge that they can go and sleep on their boat in the marina. They can then drive home the next day.
However one member recently decided, in the wee small hours, after a party that they should all proceed to a nearby island 10Nm, out which is surrounded by very dangerous reef. You guessed it, a large hole in the bow and the boat full of water. Yes they were all rescued but his insurance claim will help to raise everyone elses. (45 ft MOBO) olewill

 

[oldsaltoz]

G'day Olewill,

I suspect the law views a drunk on a boat the same as a drunk in a parked car.

I wonder if the Insurance company got wind of the skipper being UTI when he holed the boat? might not have paid out much at all.

After the last Miss Figurehead race we attended, about 5 years ago now; the local water police were parked outside the Whitsunday Yacht Club ramp, they had 2 boats operating, pulled up every boat that left with an outboard running.

Note: The Miss Figurehead Race in annual event and each yacht has a maiden at the bow with a just a numbered card for the judges and to identify them and very little else, still can't understand why there are so many collisions.

Avagoodweekend......

 

[SvenglishTommy]

It is an interseting topic. I often, in fact always, enjoy a beer or two when I'm cruising between islands and dont feel I'm significantly less able to handle the boat. I wouldn't dream of doing the same in the car.

Having the same rules for cars and boats doesn't make sense. The average car can easily do 70 knots, and is often in a situation where the chances of soft spongy humans appearing out of nowhere are high.

If cars were limited to 6 knots, but drinking and driving laws were removed, would there be more or less road fatalities?

Saying that even moored up, or at anchor, the skipper must be totally sober is rediculous, unless you also agree that alcohol should be completely banned because being at home in bed could unexpectedly turn into a situation where you need all your wits about you, a fire for example.

 

[Anonymous]

When you operate a sailboat you are dealing with lines carrying many tonnes of force, over heavy winches, and chain over gypsies. Fingers and hands can and do get trapped even with sober crew. Unlike a car, you usually cannot just stop a boat and wait to see what to do next; you drift with current and wind. The kinetic energy in a drifting yacht can be significant and a lot of damage can be done to people and property.

The skills are different but in no way less demanding than driving, particularly for the seasonal weekend sailor who only sails for a few weeks a year compared with driving a car which is done many times every day to the point where the car in effect becomes an extension of our limbs.

Finally, if the drinker 'falls overboard' from his car, he ends up in the gutter (which is maybe where he belongs /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) but if he falls overboard from his boat there is every chance that he will die, especially at night. Worse, other lives might be placed at risk in trying to rescue the drinker.

But there could be a distinction between marina berths, alongside, and moorings as opposed to anchoring and being under way. To my mind, if there was ever a legal limit set in Europe, it ought to exclude vessels that are on permanent moorings or tied up to the shore.

 

[duncan]

herby lies the problem relating boats and vehicles

techinically, and often enforced legally, having the keys to the vehicle let alone being in it with them (but not driving) is the same offence.

where you draw the line with boats is difficult - for a liveaboard cruiser it's anchor is the skippers interpretation of a permenant berth. there is no easy answer. remaining consistent with commercials would be one obvious solution but as they will carry more than 1 OOTW and most leisure craft don't it isn't practical.

speed and mass have been mentioned as the critical factors - the problem with this is that a hoby cat or even a sail board can kill or seriously injure a swimmer so there is really no logical room for any water users by type or size.

And it is here that I have an objection to the RYAs whole approach to this issue - effectively looking to gain exemptions for the cruising yachtsman etc rather than looking for a sensible way to apply the regulations to leisure boating as a whole.

 

[bilbobaggins]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm afraid that being at anchor is often little better than being under way.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really must try harder!

IMHO, if I can mnaage a kebord thaz connectd two 240v - and, oh, a whole lotta amps - without injury, then I can manage a sailboat that either sails at walking pace, or drifts at walking pace...... Drunk or sober!

QED? I've been doing exactly that for over 40 years, and not hazarded a blurry thing in all that time, save only perhaps the occasional coffee cup I've put down rather too quickly in the wrong place!

Right now, I'm on the outside of a bottle of good Californian Shiraz, and if you can read this, I can still put my forefinger on my nose with my eyes shut ( problem is getting 'em open again! ), and both tipe and spillchick this..... Higher-order skill still functioning. OK?

My take on all this is Darwinian. If you 'total' yourself, for any reason or none, that's your prerogative. No-one else else has a stake in your game. And a sailboat is one of the better places to experiment with mind-enhancing drugs of the fermented kind.

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[ShipsWoofy]

I do hope they make this law fair, drunk in charge of your sit on lawn mower on your garden, lose your car licence, drunk in charge of your bicycle, skateboard, zimmer frame...

How can they take your driving licence for a totally unrelated incident. What next, lose your driving licence if you are done for littering or smoking in a public place.

It is reassuring to learn all countries are getting treated like this, I see a revolution!

 

[pessimist]

I have to say that I find it hard to take this very seriously. I enjoy a beer underway, I don't think it turns me into a danger to myself or others.

I often enjoy a glass of wine (or two) while cooking, I still have all my fingers.

I live on Exmoor and often take a glass of wine with Sunday lunch before going for a walk on the moor. Increased risk of hypothermia? Probably, but surely its a question of degree?

I would not think of driving while under the 'fluence. Surely its all a question of risk assesment.

I have very little faith in legislators making a sensible judgement.

Sorry DW, not a pop at you but a reply to the thread.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

>>>
And it is here that I have an objection to the RYAs whole approach to this issue - effectively looking to gain exemptions for the cruising yachtsman etc rather than looking for a sensible way to apply the regulations to leisure boating as a whole.
>>>

There is no sensible way apart from not having any such regulation. They have not been required before, so why now? Anything can be proved with the statistics, especially when you have an agenda relating directly to compulsory qualifications. Remember all you non-UK types, we don't have to have a "boating licence" that could be confiscated and that issue is very much at the heart of all of this.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
How can they take your driving licence for a totally unrelated incident. What next, lose your driving licence if you are done for littering or smoking in a public place.

[/ QUOTE ]They are not unrelated. The common factor is alcohol. Some people have a very cavalier attitude towards the effect of alcohol on their performance and others have a drink problem so don't have the ability to function without alcohol. So there is perfectly sound logic in treating this as an alcohol offence rather than a motoring, sailing, or other offence.

Having said all that, I don't think that there is a good case for legislation on drinking and boating. The problem is so small it is hard to identify, it is difficult to enforce and almost impossible to cover the circumstances under which the drink rules apply without making the rules draconian for the ordinary non-problem drinker leisure boater. You are never going to stop the problem-drinker boater from drinking and boating, whatever laws and enforcement systems you introduce, so the problem will remain. Legislation would only make life less enjoyable for the 'normal' majority, without improving safety.