nonitoo
Well-Known Member
Max £50,000 + costs on summary conviction
Tom
Tom
chanelyacht
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
There is a disproportionality in the punishment for both offences. That's exactly my point. I take it this means you agree with me?
[/ QUOTE ]
Had you said "is dangerous driving punished too lightly", I'd have been right with you. But as you went on to say :
[ QUOTE ]
This kind of thing worries me. Give the peak capped little Hitlers who are charged with looking after our coastline a fancy new RIB, a speed gun, access to a helo and a few regulatory powers and IMHO they are going to abuse them.
[/ QUOTE ]
it was clear you thought the two marine punishments excessivly heavy, not the road punishments too light. So no, we don't agree on that premise.
Your calling me a little Hitler in a later post didn't endear me to your powers of rational argument either.
Signed
Captain A Hitler
Master Mariner
Deep Sea Pilot
There is a disproportionality in the punishment for both offences. That's exactly my point. I take it this means you agree with me?
[/ QUOTE ]
Had you said "is dangerous driving punished too lightly", I'd have been right with you. But as you went on to say :
[ QUOTE ]
This kind of thing worries me. Give the peak capped little Hitlers who are charged with looking after our coastline a fancy new RIB, a speed gun, access to a helo and a few regulatory powers and IMHO they are going to abuse them.
[/ QUOTE ]
it was clear you thought the two marine punishments excessivly heavy, not the road punishments too light. So no, we don't agree on that premise.
Your calling me a little Hitler in a later post didn't endear me to your powers of rational argument either.
Signed
Captain A Hitler
Master Mariner
Deep Sea Pilot
nonitoo
Well-Known Member
Tranona,
But it wasn't a 'leisure boater' see from the PBO report,
The Chairman of the Bench said that there were four aggravating factors in this case
1. The speed and distance of transgression
2. The experience of Mr Choat
3. It was a commercial voyage
4. A significant error in navigation
Assuming this report to be accurate then you would expect a commercial operator to have a greater level of liability over an amateur.
Tom
But it wasn't a 'leisure boater' see from the PBO report,
The Chairman of the Bench said that there were four aggravating factors in this case
1. The speed and distance of transgression
2. The experience of Mr Choat
3. It was a commercial voyage
4. A significant error in navigation
Assuming this report to be accurate then you would expect a commercial operator to have a greater level of liability over an amateur.
Tom
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I know it was a professional skipper (which the court took into account as you say- probably against him as he should have known better), but it was a leisure boat. The differentiation I was making was with big ships for whom the TSS scheme was devised. Now see the maximum fine is £50k - so he got off lightly IMO. A £6k fine to a big shipping company for that level of transgression would be ludicrous. Personal opinion, but based on some experience of big ship safety issues.
I think it unlikely that an ordinary boater would get in that situation as I suspect most are like me and keep well clear of the big stuff.
I think it unlikely that an ordinary boater would get in that situation as I suspect most are like me and keep well clear of the big stuff.
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Ok, Nonitoo, yes I do have a view. Lets start with the maximum fines that magistrates courts are allowed to dish out. For a level 5 offence like assault, mugging, types of theft or serious public order offences, the maximum fine a magistrates court can hand out is £5000 (without costs). Is straying into a TSS a more heinous than these offences? I think not. IMHO accidentally straying into a TSS is akin to driving without due care and attention or maybe dangerous driving so make that a fine of somewhere between £60 and £500 in my view. As for speeding on the Hamble, I don't see why the fine should be much different from speeding in a car so depending on the severity, say £60-£300
All IMHO of course
All IMHO of course
flaming
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, Nonitoo, yes I do have a view. Lets start with the maximum fines that magistrates courts are allowed to dish out. For a level 5 offence like assault, mugging, types of theft or serious public order offences, the maximum fine a magistrates court can hand out is £5000 (without costs). Is straying into a TSS a more heinous than these offences? I think not. IMHO accidentally straying into a TSS is akin to driving without due care and attention or maybe dangerous driving so make that a fine of somewhere between £60 and £500 in my view. As for speeding on the Hamble, I don't see why the fine should be much different from speeding in a car so depending on the severity, say £60-£300
All IMHO of course
[/ QUOTE ]
You use the word "accidentally". I don't see how a professional delivery skipper can possibly claim this to be accidental. It actually beggers belief that anyone who calls themselves a professional delivery skipper can make that sort of mistake. I hope the MCA/RYA withdraw his yachtmaster certificate.
As to the parity of fines, fair point, but I think it's the other fines that are too small.
Speeding in the Hamble is not really comparable to speeding on the motorway. Speeding on the motorway is not dangerous unless you cause a crash. Speeding on the Hamble is dangerous even if no crash is caused as the wash will throw the many boats on river pontoons around. I used to race on board a boat that was kept on a mid river pontoon and remeber vividly the occasion when a large MOBO came past at a speed that was obviously speeding whilst we were transferring to the launch. That was very dangerous and it was only because all concerned had seen the danger that an accident was avoided. A family crew with small kids may not have had that experience.
In my opinion the level of fine needed on the Hamble is such that people will take notice of it.
Ok, Nonitoo, yes I do have a view. Lets start with the maximum fines that magistrates courts are allowed to dish out. For a level 5 offence like assault, mugging, types of theft or serious public order offences, the maximum fine a magistrates court can hand out is £5000 (without costs). Is straying into a TSS a more heinous than these offences? I think not. IMHO accidentally straying into a TSS is akin to driving without due care and attention or maybe dangerous driving so make that a fine of somewhere between £60 and £500 in my view. As for speeding on the Hamble, I don't see why the fine should be much different from speeding in a car so depending on the severity, say £60-£300
All IMHO of course
[/ QUOTE ]
You use the word "accidentally". I don't see how a professional delivery skipper can possibly claim this to be accidental. It actually beggers belief that anyone who calls themselves a professional delivery skipper can make that sort of mistake. I hope the MCA/RYA withdraw his yachtmaster certificate.
As to the parity of fines, fair point, but I think it's the other fines that are too small.
Speeding in the Hamble is not really comparable to speeding on the motorway. Speeding on the motorway is not dangerous unless you cause a crash. Speeding on the Hamble is dangerous even if no crash is caused as the wash will throw the many boats on river pontoons around. I used to race on board a boat that was kept on a mid river pontoon and remeber vividly the occasion when a large MOBO came past at a speed that was obviously speeding whilst we were transferring to the launch. That was very dangerous and it was only because all concerned had seen the danger that an accident was avoided. A family crew with small kids may not have had that experience.
In my opinion the level of fine needed on the Hamble is such that people will take notice of it.
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
You use the word "accidentally". I don't see how a professional delivery skipper can possibly claim this to be accidental
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't believe it was done deliberately. Why? The boat was being delivered from Brighton to the River Crouch. There would have been no point in entering the TSS deliberately because the shorter route would have been inshore. It's just a guess but maybe the boat being delivered had inadequate charts or the incorrect plotter catridge or the plotter/GPS went down or whatever and the skipper decided to go well offshore to avoid the Goodwins? Maybe the guy wasn't a true professional delivery skipper and was just an employee of a boat sales company? I've met (and used) some delivery skippers in my time and one or two of them I wouldn't put in charge of navigating a pushchair
[ QUOTE ]
Speeding in the Hamble is not really comparable to speeding on the motorway
[/ QUOTE ]
My original comparison was to a vehicle being caught doing 50mph in a 30mph zone, not a motorway offence. Again it's just a guess but I bet the guy caught speeding on the Hamble was caught in the river entrance. Nobody does 11kts in the river itself. The entrance is fairly wide and, frankly, doing 11 kts there is not dangerous and certainly not as dangerous as a vehicle doing 50mph in a 30mph zone which is very likely to be a 30mph zone because there are pedestrians about
The Hamble harbourmaster has a couple of flash new launches and a new speed gun and IMHO this was just making an example of some poor sap to justify the expenditure
You use the word "accidentally". I don't see how a professional delivery skipper can possibly claim this to be accidental
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't believe it was done deliberately. Why? The boat was being delivered from Brighton to the River Crouch. There would have been no point in entering the TSS deliberately because the shorter route would have been inshore. It's just a guess but maybe the boat being delivered had inadequate charts or the incorrect plotter catridge or the plotter/GPS went down or whatever and the skipper decided to go well offshore to avoid the Goodwins? Maybe the guy wasn't a true professional delivery skipper and was just an employee of a boat sales company? I've met (and used) some delivery skippers in my time and one or two of them I wouldn't put in charge of navigating a pushchair
[ QUOTE ]
Speeding in the Hamble is not really comparable to speeding on the motorway
[/ QUOTE ]
My original comparison was to a vehicle being caught doing 50mph in a 30mph zone, not a motorway offence. Again it's just a guess but I bet the guy caught speeding on the Hamble was caught in the river entrance. Nobody does 11kts in the river itself. The entrance is fairly wide and, frankly, doing 11 kts there is not dangerous and certainly not as dangerous as a vehicle doing 50mph in a 30mph zone which is very likely to be a 30mph zone because there are pedestrians about
The Hamble harbourmaster has a couple of flash new launches and a new speed gun and IMHO this was just making an example of some poor sap to justify the expenditure
flaming
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You use the word "accidentally". I don't see how a professional delivery skipper can possibly claim this to be accidental
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't believe it was done deliberately. Why? The boat was being delivered from Brighton to the River Crouch. There would have been no point in entering the TSS deliberately because the shorter route would have been inshore. It's just a guess but maybe the boat being delivered had inadequate charts or the incorrect plotter catridge or the plotter/GPS went down or whatever and the skipper decided to go well offshore to avoid the Goodwins? Maybe the guy wasn't a true professional delivery skipper and was just an employee of a boat sales company? I've met (and used) some delivery skippers in my time and one or two of them I wouldn't put in charge of navigating a pushchair
[ QUOTE ]
Speeding in the Hamble is not really comparable to speeding on the motorway
[/ QUOTE ]
My original comparison was to a vehicle being caught doing 50mph in a 30mph zone, not a motorway offence. Again it's just a guess but I bet the guy caught speeding on the Hamble was caught in the river entrance. Nobody does 11kts in the river itself. The entrance is fairly wide and, frankly, doing 11 kts there is not dangerous and certainly not as dangerous as a vehicle doing 50mph in a 30mph zone which is very likely to be a 30mph zone because there are pedestrians about
The Hamble harbourmaster has a couple of flash new launches and a new speed gun and IMHO this was just making an example of some poor sap to justify the expenditure
[/ QUOTE ]
If the Hamble incident is the one I'm thinking of it wasn't in the entrance, it was up by the Royal Southern.
I'd agree that the decision to enter the TSS seems really odd, but the defence of poor charts or plotter doesn't wash. It is the skipper's responsibilty to ensure these things are on board before leaving, regardless of who is paying for them.
If this was a paid delivery then I have no sympathy whatsoever. Doesn't matter if you do the trip every day, or haven't done it before. To take money and then put someone else's boat in that situation is inexcusable.
The point was made earlier that there is no liscence to take away (which in my opinion is a bigger deterrant on the road than the small £60 fine) so a £60 fine for any marine offence becomes meaningless.
[ QUOTE ]
You use the word "accidentally". I don't see how a professional delivery skipper can possibly claim this to be accidental
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't believe it was done deliberately. Why? The boat was being delivered from Brighton to the River Crouch. There would have been no point in entering the TSS deliberately because the shorter route would have been inshore. It's just a guess but maybe the boat being delivered had inadequate charts or the incorrect plotter catridge or the plotter/GPS went down or whatever and the skipper decided to go well offshore to avoid the Goodwins? Maybe the guy wasn't a true professional delivery skipper and was just an employee of a boat sales company? I've met (and used) some delivery skippers in my time and one or two of them I wouldn't put in charge of navigating a pushchair
[ QUOTE ]
Speeding in the Hamble is not really comparable to speeding on the motorway
[/ QUOTE ]
My original comparison was to a vehicle being caught doing 50mph in a 30mph zone, not a motorway offence. Again it's just a guess but I bet the guy caught speeding on the Hamble was caught in the river entrance. Nobody does 11kts in the river itself. The entrance is fairly wide and, frankly, doing 11 kts there is not dangerous and certainly not as dangerous as a vehicle doing 50mph in a 30mph zone which is very likely to be a 30mph zone because there are pedestrians about
The Hamble harbourmaster has a couple of flash new launches and a new speed gun and IMHO this was just making an example of some poor sap to justify the expenditure
[/ QUOTE ]
If the Hamble incident is the one I'm thinking of it wasn't in the entrance, it was up by the Royal Southern.
I'd agree that the decision to enter the TSS seems really odd, but the defence of poor charts or plotter doesn't wash. It is the skipper's responsibilty to ensure these things are on board before leaving, regardless of who is paying for them.
If this was a paid delivery then I have no sympathy whatsoever. Doesn't matter if you do the trip every day, or haven't done it before. To take money and then put someone else's boat in that situation is inexcusable.
The point was made earlier that there is no liscence to take away (which in my opinion is a bigger deterrant on the road than the small £60 fine) so a £60 fine for any marine offence becomes meaningless.
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
OK, if the speeding offence was by the Royal Southern then fair enough but a total of £2460 is just way over the top.
I'm not saying that having inadequate navigation tools is any defence, all I'm saying is that it might be a reason for straying into the TSS
I'm not saying that having inadequate navigation tools is any defence, all I'm saying is that it might be a reason for straying into the TSS
flaming
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
OK, if the speeding offence was by the Royal Southern then fair enough but a total of £2460 is just way over the top.
[/ QUOTE ]
What would be a reasonable fine then?
OK, if the speeding offence was by the Royal Southern then fair enough but a total of £2460 is just way over the top.
[/ QUOTE ]
What would be a reasonable fine then?
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
refer to my previous posts
flaming
Well-Known Member
Ok, so £60- £300 for the Hamble speeding?
I think that is too low, simply because there is no liscence to put points on. This means that all of the deterent and punishment must be financial.
I think that is too low, simply because there is no liscence to put points on. This means that all of the deterent and punishment must be financial.
nonitoo
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, Nonitoo, yes I do have a view. Lets start with the maximum fines that magistrates courts are allowed to dish out. For a level 5 offence like assault, mugging, types of theft or serious public order offences, the maximum fine a magistrates court can hand out is £5000 (without costs). Is straying into a TSS a more heinous than these offences? I think not. IMHO accidentally straying into a TSS is akin to driving without due care and attention or maybe dangerous driving so make that a fine of somewhere between £60 and £500 in my view. As for speeding on the Hamble, I don't see why the fine should be much different from speeding in a car so depending on the severity, say £60-£300
All IMHO of course
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for replying Deleted User, when you maximum fines in the Magistrates' Courts you mention L5 -£5000, except in circumstances such as we are discussing where the maximum in the Magistrates' Court is £50,000 + costs, quite correctly but omit the fact that should they consider their powers inadequate, and the case is triable either way, then they have the option of sending the matter to the Crown Court for sentence.
Other than that you voice your opinion as to the level of fines you consider appropriate and I am certainly not going to try and alter what is obviously a firmly held view. Perhaps all I can say is that comparing Contravention of the Sea Lanes to Road Traffic Act offences or, as you mention assault, mugging, types of theft or serious public order offences, is utterly pointless and not worthy of discussion, they are not the same or even similar in any meaningful way.
Suffice to say that those who formulate the law share this view and, as the courts implement the laws as laid down by our representatives, your recourse should be to them, not the courts.
Courts do not make laws - they apply them.
Tom
Ok, Nonitoo, yes I do have a view. Lets start with the maximum fines that magistrates courts are allowed to dish out. For a level 5 offence like assault, mugging, types of theft or serious public order offences, the maximum fine a magistrates court can hand out is £5000 (without costs). Is straying into a TSS a more heinous than these offences? I think not. IMHO accidentally straying into a TSS is akin to driving without due care and attention or maybe dangerous driving so make that a fine of somewhere between £60 and £500 in my view. As for speeding on the Hamble, I don't see why the fine should be much different from speeding in a car so depending on the severity, say £60-£300
All IMHO of course
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for replying Deleted User, when you maximum fines in the Magistrates' Courts you mention L5 -£5000, except in circumstances such as we are discussing where the maximum in the Magistrates' Court is £50,000 + costs, quite correctly but omit the fact that should they consider their powers inadequate, and the case is triable either way, then they have the option of sending the matter to the Crown Court for sentence.
Other than that you voice your opinion as to the level of fines you consider appropriate and I am certainly not going to try and alter what is obviously a firmly held view. Perhaps all I can say is that comparing Contravention of the Sea Lanes to Road Traffic Act offences or, as you mention assault, mugging, types of theft or serious public order offences, is utterly pointless and not worthy of discussion, they are not the same or even similar in any meaningful way.
Suffice to say that those who formulate the law share this view and, as the courts implement the laws as laid down by our representatives, your recourse should be to them, not the courts.
Courts do not make laws - they apply them.
Tom
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Well, Nonitoo, you obviously have an insider view of the offences and, yes, you're right, I'm not going to change my views on this. However, I do think it's perfectly valid to compare one type of offence with another. In fact we wouldn't have a legal system without doing exactly that. Shoplifting and murder are not comparable offences but everybody knows that one is a lot worse than the other so the legal system takes account of this by applying more onerous sentences for murder. So I think it's quite valid to compare unrelated offences to the offence of illegally entering a TSS and asking why the sentences are so different and, IMHO, disproportionate to the gravity of the offence
To be honest, I think we've exhausted this subject and further discussion is not going to change either of our opinions so thats as much as I'm going to post on this
To be honest, I think we've exhausted this subject and further discussion is not going to change either of our opinions so thats as much as I'm going to post on this
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Agree to disagree on that. For me the fine alone is sufficient deterrent
DAKA
Well-Known Member
I can understand you standing your ground on this one Mike, did someone get finned £2500 for doing 11 knots in the Hamble ?
Slap on the wrist time but £2500 /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I was 2 years before I learnt where the restriction starts and ends ( I wouldn't do 11 knots in a river anyway) but 8/9 knots can soon turn to 11 with a bit of tide behind you.
There by the grace of God go I , clearly these so called fines are just a scam or the HM would advertise the speed restrictions better.
How hard can it be to put a big sign up
8 KNOTS FROM HERE
INCLUDES/EXCLUDES TIDE.
they would have to stop sails being hoisted until boats are outside the river mouth so we can see the signs.
Slap on the wrist time but £2500 /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I was 2 years before I learnt where the restriction starts and ends ( I wouldn't do 11 knots in a river anyway) but 8/9 knots can soon turn to 11 with a bit of tide behind you.
There by the grace of God go I , clearly these so called fines are just a scam or the HM would advertise the speed restrictions better.
How hard can it be to put a big sign up
8 KNOTS FROM HERE
INCLUDES/EXCLUDES TIDE.
they would have to stop sails being hoisted until boats are outside the river mouth so we can see the signs.
nonitoo
Well-Known Member
I tend to agree with you that this has been done to death, enjoyed the discussion though.
Tom
Tom
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
OK, if the speeding offence was by the Royal Southern then fair enough but a total of £2460 is just way over the top.
[/ QUOTE ]In that I disagree with you completely....... the river is full of tenders, people up masts, etc.... the wash at 11kts is bloody dangerous in some of these situations..... people have drowned after having their tender swamped by wash....... it needs jumping on from a great height..... an example setting.... and this strikes me as just that.
OK, if the speeding offence was by the Royal Southern then fair enough but a total of £2460 is just way over the top.
[/ QUOTE ]In that I disagree with you completely....... the river is full of tenders, people up masts, etc.... the wash at 11kts is bloody dangerous in some of these situations..... people have drowned after having their tender swamped by wash....... it needs jumping on from a great height..... an example setting.... and this strikes me as just that.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
11 knots cog punching a current is excessive wash in many cases, but 9knts with the flow is acceptable most the time.
How do the speed limits work COG or log ?
I might need to slow down when the HMs about /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
How do the speed limits work COG or log ?
I might need to slow down when the HMs about /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
flaming
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
How do the speed limits work COG or log ?
[/ QUOTE ]
Log.
How do the speed limits work COG or log ?
[/ QUOTE ]
Log.