boat values

[gjgm]

I think we did the rounds on this a year or two ago, but another thread just prompts me to ask again...
In whose interest is it that actual sales values are not more public? I guess it is possible that manufacturers are reluctant to advertise the depreciation rates on newish boats, and any database has to be funded in some way.. and maybe it would have no value if people are not honest about a sale price.
Still, as boat owners, wouldnt we rather be informed of current price levels , as opposed to asking prices? Or do we generally have a good feel for the right level, and that any sale is so dependent on the boat itself, extras,location, market, personal circumstances that any database would not really be that meaningful ? Or are we all just relaxed about a 10/20 pct variation on £10s or £100's of thousand of pounds?

 

[Nautibusiness]

I think we did the rounds on this a year or two ago, but another thread just prompts me to ask again...
In whose interest is it that actual sales values are not more public? I guess it is possible that manufacturers are reluctant to advertise the depreciation rates on newish boats, and any database has to be funded in some way.. and maybe it would have no value if people are not honest about a sale price.
Still, as boat owners, wouldnt we rather be informed of current price levels , as opposed to asking prices? Or do we generally have a good feel for the right level, and that any sale is so dependent on the boat itself, extras,location, market, personal circumstances that any database would not really be that meaningful ? Or are we all just relaxed about a 10/20 pct variation on £10s or £100's of thousand of pounds?

It's an odd one.
Boat values vary tremendously due to many different reasons.

A boat that sells in France for £100K, may only sell here for £95K.
Is it a popular model?
Is it a niche product?
Is it shiney?
If buying used, what's the market like for the new version?
If buying new, what's the market like for the used version...?

I am not ashamed of the prices the new and used boats I sell for. They vary and no one deal is the same as the other. Suffice to say, there is almost always a deal of some description. It's that sentence that needs remembering by any vendor as the buyer will always have it in mind.

Some boats appear to be cheap some appear to have sold at above the apparant market value. Some vendors aren't prepared to sell as quickly as others and sadly some vendors have to sell as quickly as possible.

There is no Glaces Guide for boats as it is such a movable feast.
A boat is only worth as much as a buyer is willing to pay for it and ultimately what the vendor will let it go for. That's the same for both new and used.

Tom

 

[Nick_H]

I think there are still a few buyers who pay asking prices, or think they've done well to get 5% off, so maybe the brokers are a bit loathe to make selling prices too public at the risk of providing those buyers with too much info. I think you're also right about who funds the database, and new boat depreciation.

 

[Nautibusiness]

I think there are still a few buyers who pay asking prices,

It's 100% down to the specific boat and ho much the buyer wants it.

Nobody is funding a database, there isn't one.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Nobody is funding a database, there isn't one.

What about soldboats.com? I know the data in there can get a bit optimistic, but it was certainly the case in the past that it was the closest thing there was to a database of actual sales prices.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[gjgm]

It's 100% down to the specific boat and ho much the buyer wants it.

Nobody is funding a database, there isn't one.

and how much the seller wants to sell it, of course.

I accept your point that no two boat sales are the same, but I cant help thinking that if I knew 5 boats have sold over the last 6 months at £95k/105k (just to choose some numbers), then I have a very good idea that is what the market is likely to stand. Therefore, I dont put my boat for sale at 125k, and no one makes an offer at 75k (again, just to choose some numbers). Both buyer and seller have a reference point for a probably value.
Again, thats why I asked.. maybe we all do have a reasonable guess as the the value, as perhaps we tend to have a half eye on boats that we own.Or, again as I suggested, maybe we accept that a realised value maybe 10/15/25?? pct away from our perceived value... and thats just boating.
Still, wouldnt the market function better if there was more transparency?
Better for who, you might ask...!

 

[ian38_39]

How do you get onto Soldboats.com? it is asking for a login and password

 

[gjgm]

What about soldboats.com? I know the data in there can get a bit optimistic, but it was certainly the case in the past that it was the closest thing there was to a database of actual sales prices.

Cheers
Jimmy

No chance it that getting through my firewall,Jimmy
Is that just USA boats?

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

How do you get onto Soldboats.com? it is asking for a login and password

I think you get credentials by being a trade member of yachtworld.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

No chance it that getting through my firewall,Jimmy
Is that just USA boats?

Nope, it's basically an offshoot of yachtworld which is global. However, when I last looked at it, it was definitely the case that some brokers were fibbing about actual sales values.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[ian38_39]

So it is not actually any use to the general public then? Only to brokers, who should know the value anyway, and are the ones who tell owners that their boat is worth 10k more than it is to get them signed up and then 10k less than it is in order to get a sale.

(Not all brokers are implicated in this message, just the ones who we need to know to ignore but can't as we don't have access to the numbers)

 

[Nautibusiness]

and how much the seller wants to sell it, of course.

Sorry, I had actually meant to add that.... I'd put it in the post above it!

Never used soldboat.com so can't comment about it. Not even logged onto it.

As a broker, I do try and get the "deal" to happen. It is in my interest to get as much for a boat as I can (at the end of the day, I am working for the vendor and he pays me based on the amount we sell her for), but I will also try and hold a deal together if we get a seriously keen buyer who is close, but not quite close enough.
It isn't rocket science and we don't use a book to calculate prices, the prices are very much driven by what buyers are offering and that is driven by all manner of things. None of it is underhand (certainly not from here!), secretive or cleverly calculated.
I use a rule of thumb for basic depreciation of a typical boat from a typical manufacturer and then tweak the figures according to any unique circumstances.
I have very open discussions with my vendors about where I believe the price of a boat should be pitched and where I believe the selling price will ultimately end up. I don't get it right everytime, but usually very close. Of course the vendor is the boss and he can ignore my suggestions and pitch wherever he wants the price to be.

Tom

 

[Tranona]

Simple A level economics explains the process. A perfect market needs many buyers, many sellers, homogeneous products and perfect information to establish an efficient market price. The more you move away from these conditions the more difficult it is to establish a market price.

The "market" for most individual types of boats is the very opposite of a perfect market. Few buyers, few sellers (therefore few transactions), differing products, (age, equipment,condition,location etc) and very poor information because each transaction is private with no reliable independent record of the price and terms. So hardly surprising that setting a price requires the use of proxy measures for the key variables to set an asking price that will attract the tiny number of potential buyers to engage in negotiations to set the actual price.

When this subject came up on another thread, I did a bit of research. The examples are sailboats, but the principle is the same. The question was why is it so difficult to get a fix on prices on certain high quality sailboats. Example of Malo. There are currently 16 for sale on Yachtworld (only two in UK) covering 10 different models varying in age from 2 to 25 years old and prices from £80-350k. At a guess, even the most common models only a handful change hands each year. Good example of the value of using a specialist broker who does have the knowledge of the very narrow market.

Compare this with a Bavaria 36 (1999-2002). High volume standard mass production boat. Approx 60 listed on Yachtworld, 10 in UK. Asking prices in the UK average £61k. All on offer except 1 have asking price +/- 10% of the average.

Better information about previous transactions might help, but they are in the past and finding a good match to the boat you are buying or selling is not easy. The key to making markets work in products like private boat sales is exposing the product to the widest number of potential buyers as buyers can only buy what they know about and sellers can only make their decision on what price to sell at when they have attracted as much interest as they can.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

How could you make actual sales values public and what purpose would it serve? The price I sell or buy a boat at is between me, my God and my broker. I would object to any data about my transactions being incorporated in any public database. Say I had a fairly uncommon boat and I sold it and it was the only one included in the survey. It would be too easy to identify that as my transaction and what would be the point of including the data anyway as one transaction cannot be used as a guide to selling prices. IMHO there aren't enough total sales in the boating industry to make an authorative guide and it would be too easy to compromise individuals' private information

 

[Bassplayer]

To add my 2c worth at a slight tangent. Every boat I have enquired about has brought the response from the broker that the owner is "very keen / desperate to sell" and usually the broker suggests an offer at about 20% or more below the asking price. This underlines the adage above about anything only being worth what someone is willing to pay/offer, and the present state of the market. Glad I aint selling though!

 

[Whitelighter]

Let us know when you sucessful at 20% under the asking price.

You are right, a boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay, but a sale can only happen if that value matches the value at which an owner is willing to sell. It takes two to tango.

The brokers you have spoken to are not doing their clients any favours, and I suppose are working on the basis that 5% of a low bid is better than 5% of no bid....

Its a funny ol' world.

 

[gjgm]

Fair point, Mike, about confidentiality; at least in a niche market. If it concerns you, that is. Dont forget, the buyer knows what it sold for too (Maybe he is god in this instance!!)
I hadnt thought about that; I m not sure if I would care who knows what my boat sold for if I believed it was fair value. I might feel differently if circumstances were such that I felt I'd been shafted.
Still,my question wasnt really about a database itself; it was simply would the second hand market function better if there was a better flow of information as to recent prices? I accept that leads to a question of how do we achieve that flow, but that it wasnt my question.

 

[Nick_H]

The brokers you have spoken to are not doing their clients any favours

I dunno, it's an old sales trick (as i'm sure you know) to get someone to put in any offer to get them engaged in the possibility of a deal, then work from there. If they can be talked up by 10% then they still think they've got a good deal at 10% under asking price, but it may be that any other seller would also have dropped their price by 10%, but the buyer never even enquired about those boats, cos' he was enticed by the possibility of 20% off.

 

[Vanilla]

The price I sell or buy a boat at is between me, my God and my broker. I would object to any data about my transactions being incorporated in any public database.

Whether we like it or not the actual price paid for every house sale in England (maybe whole of UK??? but certainly England) over the past few years is now on an open-access website. Don't think anyone is able to block their own property from appearing on the site. A great hit with nosey neighbours!

 

[epervier]

Whether we like it or not the actual price paid for every house sale in England (maybe whole of UK??? but certainly England) over the past few years is now on an open-access website. Don't think anyone is able to block their own property from appearing on the site. A great hit with nosey neighbours!

For those that care, it's www.OurProperty.co.uk .