boat use without a vhf license?

[cliff]

Sometimes it's explaining little things, like folding down a 2m whip because the helicopter above you has asked you to won't mean you can't speak to him!

Then explain to me how one folds down a 15m mast (with a 2m whip on top) - me thinks the egg beater jockey will have to work round my mast and rigging (and has done) so why can he not do the same on a MOBO that only as a little one (2m whip antenna that is)

 

[chanelyacht]

Then explain to me how one folds down a 15m mast (with a 2m whip on top) - me thinks the egg beater jockey will have to work round my mast and rigging (and has done) so why can he not do the same on a MOBO that only as a little one (2m whip antenna that is)

It depends on the postioning (and the alternatives). If you're on a 30ft yacht then obviously folding down the mast isn't an option - but on a 20 foot mobo running at 10 knots, a simple 10 second job to make the winchie's life easier (and yours should the antistat line hit the antenna) is not a big ask.

 

[ShinyShoe]

Then explain to me how one folds down a 15m mast (with a 2m whip on top) - me thinks the egg beater jockey will have to work round my mast and rigging (and has done) so why can he not do the same on a MOBO that only as a little one (2m whip antenna that is)

You cant fold down your mast ya prat. But the wobbly bit is at the top of your mast. If the winchman is swinging near the top of your mast something went wrong. He would usually be coming to you from aft and move forward when below spiking level. On a Mobo thats harder when the 2m whip is the highest part and also a problem for Ribs etc with 2m on an A Frame.

If the chopper asks if you can fold the aerial and you come back to them to say - on my other boat I cant fold my mast so you should just work round it I sincerely hope they don't decide to just park their chopper on your head for being a cock.

No radio check on 16 with CG in solent

This wasn't covered in the course when I did it (4 years ago), hence my understanding that coastguard would be happy to confirm your radio check - they always have to me, cheerfully and enthusiastically, but since the recent memos, I have ceased asking for it.

Well if you'd read the book its in the book LOL. So much for all who say all you need is the book...
I'm sure people adjust content for the audience. But it was in my course 10 years ago in the NE. I also think audiences adjust what they hear based on their sailing area. I know I may one day be in the Solent as I have been 20 years ago. So its of interest. Think they talked about limitations of EPIRB in Arctic Circle... Think I didn't care as I doubt I'll ever be sailing in the Arctic Circle!

Solent happily take checks (only Fal seem to have taken a tough line). But Solent ask for direct contact on 67. 67 (or 73) is not open on all CG masts all the time from my understanding so I guess Fal can't adopt the policy.

Last weekend Solent were asking for RCs with another vessel not on 16, given as a routine broadcast not with the weather, specifically because they were casualty working.

That piece of paper is to say that you have demonstrated an ability to achieve a certain standard at a particular time.
Just because you have read a book & THINK you know, it does not mean you actually DO, & quite often it is those self opinionated types that actually do not know how.
A reason for those to gibe at the exam that they cannot pass

Exactly... Why did you go to secondary school? You could read by then so just give people a book and you'd understand trigonometry, history and german plus be a Picasso grade artist by reading a book about what he did!
Would you want a doctor who read it all in a book and had no hands on experience.
Books cant answer questions. Or enter into debate.
While a small number of people will read a book cover to cover, most will skip bits they don't think matters (I remember sitting on my course and thinking this is pointless info I'm being taught and would have skipped in a book). But its only pointless till you need it...

It can be variable, depending on the instructor. When I teach, I cover the syllabus, but I also try and make it scenario based using x years of coastguard experience, which I like to think brings a bit more to the students.

With a good instructor, you'll go away knowing a lot more than a pure listing of items covered would show.

Sometimes it's explaining little things, like folding down a 2m whip because the helicopter above you has asked you to won't mean you can't speak to him!

Instructor quality is key.

You can still gain that knowledge in the RYA book though. Does anyone ever fail the course?

Yes, I've failed people a couple of times for sheer inability.

There you go. But the question should really be - if people just read the book and then sat the exam how many would fail. The new online course is kind of along those lines... ...so we will see

+1. I did the VHF course in 1995 and in that time I had never used the VHF radio in earnest. Nowadays, given the DSC aspect of the course, should I really do the course again? I am just going to get the updated RYA booklet and let my crew (wife) read it just in case.

If you have a DSC set I'd imagine the thing you'd want to do is press the red button to understand what happens next. Clearly the GMDSS architects and the software programmers don't think like me as most sets don't behave how I'd have written it. For starters if you want to pick a distress type its buried in most sets. I would have it so you can press red for 1 seconds, scroll through the type and then hold down red to send. I think only one set I've come across does that... (A silva I think!)

So I'd want to use the simulator. The course gives access to simulators...

I did my course 10 years ago. I'd quite like when I buy a DSC set for the new boat being planned in a couple of years time that I could access an ap that behaves as a simulator specific to that model.

Knowing the limitations is key. So what happens if there is no GPS position? What happens if GPS pos is old? What should you do when a boat nearby has hit red button and your set is alarming like there is no tomorrow and no-one else seems to be answering?

Further thread drift, what info should I give, in what order, to get the ambulance quickest? cheers Jerry

PS anyone who seriously thinks they don't need training on marine VHF is uninformed or just being a c0ck, in my humble opinion.

*Puts on ex-official hat* - Telephone Number, Address, then repeat each if asked - then listen carefully and respond to each question stating "don't know" if the question is irrelevant (They are scripted sadly, the operator gets "audited" if they don't ask it...don't get me started!) The ambulance is always being arranged from the first time the address has been confirmed - the questions do not delay the response - but the triage questions then can "downgrade" the call, to allow the management to say "ok, we didn't make it in 8 minutes, but it's ok, it wasn't that serious" - it's a statistics thing and allows them to justify not spending money on more resources! (Ok, a bit cynical there, it is actually a good system for triaging the seriousness of a condition!)

*Takes off official hat and recites what one of the paramedics told me to say* "This is the address, this is my phone number, I am not answering your triage questions, this is what has happened, please send the ambulance" - This, while I think possibly unethical, means that the Concsious and Breathing questions go to "unknown" and so results as a "red" or possibly "purple" call. Of course, this is from a medical professional point of view, if the casualty is seriously injured and you have no medical training for stabilising them, this is a VERY BAD piece of advice, as the call handlers are trained and scripted to provide basic instruction on stabilising the patient.

Meanwhile...back to VHF...

For both the call and the VHF the basic structure should be pretty much the same:

WHO (so they can contact you back if cut off - on a phone the operator will pass that over for you. They will also tell them which of the 5 999 call centres is passing them the call so if the call is lost they can go back to the right call centre. Not sure but from a mobile I always seem to go via Cable and Wireless at Inverness.)
WHERE if you get disconnected after this they know where to go
WHAT WRONG they know what is wrong. I'd personally not wait for the traige calls... ...but I'd likely have at least a differential diagnosis. So I'd be saying something like "Patient in cardiac arrest" they may still want to go through triage stuff. Fine but it makes sure its being handled as a priority call. I don't think an ambulance is ALWAYS mobilised before the triage call part (there isn't always one available!) but if you have given them enough to know they need to pull all the stops they can start looking for resources further away.

For Red 1 calls (most urgent) the clock for the 8 minute response time starts as the call is connected. For Red 2 calls the clock starts up to 1 minute later depending on how long it takes to assess urgency. So I'd want them to know quickly if I'm Red 1 or Red 2.

HOW MANY - how much help is needed
WHAT HAPPENED - If you get cut off this is the least important bit of info.

Comparing that to:
Mayday (you dialled 999 / 112 so they know its supposed to be an emergency!)
Identification (Your phone number)
Position (the incident location)
Distress (eg. Fire, Collision etc) (e.g. Cardiac arrest?)
Assitance Required (tied into distress... for an ambulance you don't usually specify?)
No. of people onboard (No of casulaties)
Information (eg. abandoning to liferaft) (What happened)
Over

For both 999 call and Mayday you should fully expect them to come back with questions. Listening to CG they have some standard questions. If you know what they are likely to ask and can calmly tell them before they ask that all crew have lifejackets on, are in survival suits and you have an EPIRB and are CG66 registered they will probably get a decent feel for you know what you are doing so when you say you have six inches of water in the bilge you probably haven't forgotton to turn the bilge pump on...

GMDSS (Global Maritime Distress and Safety System) uses DSC for an automatic distress signal.
See for more details http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/gmdss.pdf
Using DSC for Mayday enables an automatic transmission of both the Mayday signal and your present position, providing your DSC set is interfaced with a GPS.
Just lift or slide the safety latch and press the red Mayday DISTRESS button (far right in the photo above). Some sets allow you to specify the type of distress eg 'Sinking'.
Wait about 15 seconds for a DSC acknowledgement from the Coastguard or a ship station. On Ch16, on receipt of a DSC acknowledgement or after about 15 seconds, send a voice Distress call:
Mayday, Mayday, Mayday
This is ‘YACHT NAME.................’, spoken three times
Mayday – NAME and ‘MMSI* or call sign’, spoken once
My Position is…………….
Nature of Distress………………
Assistance required…………..
Number on board (total crew + skipper)........
Other information
Over

How is a two day course going to make me better at doing the above?

Because you practice it on a simulator. You practice the speed you speak to be understood. You practice receiving it at the other end too. You practice doing it smoothly without hesitation. You can debate with others in the room to understand what is a Mayday, a PanPan and a "I'm just calling to let you know"

You cover equipment configuration.

Your cover channels and their capabilities / limits.

You cover the rules on licences etc.

I am aware of that and I've used one for many years, mainly discussing berthing with a marina. I've never had to issue a Mayday or a PanPan but I know how to do it though I've never been on a course. That said, I can't imagine reading out my call sign and mmsi number with water splashing around my ankles.

And if you don't it wont be the end of the world. If you hit red button the MMSI is wanted to ensure there are not two simillar named boats in distress at the same time one who voice called and one who DSC called. Unlikely. But you never know. If you miss it the CG will simply ask for it after the voice transmission. BUT I suspect many have the script next to the set and just read it off anyway... afterall you are unlikely to memorise your MMSI.

 

[tonygibbs]

Good info there ShinyShoe. I will need to get instructions for radio that's installed on my boat (came with the boat I purchased last year) It has a red 'Mayday' button so think it's probably wise to get on a refresher course.

 

[jerrytug]

Thanks ShinyShoe.
( I am the sad person who has memorized their MMSI, callsign, SSR, I just couldn't bring myself not to)

 

[prv]

If you hit red button the MMSI is wanted to ensure there are not two simillar named boats in distress at the same time one who voice called and one who DSC called. Unlikely. But you never know.

And I have known it happen, in the Solent about four or five years ago. One boat transmitted a DSC Distress only, another called in a voice Mayday a few minutes later. I can't really remember the details but there was quite some confusion before the Coastguard definitely established that they were different vessels.

Pete

 

[FishyInverness]

WHO (so they can contact you back if cut off - on a phone the operator will pass that over for you. They will also tell them which of the 5 999 call centres is passing them the call so if the call is lost they can go back to the right call centre. Not sure but from a mobile I always seem to go via Cable and Wireless at Inverness.)
WHERE if you get disconnected after this they know where to go
WHAT WRONG they know what is wrong. I'd personally not wait for the traige calls... ...but I'd likely have at least a differential diagnosis. So I'd be saying something like "Patient in cardiac arrest" they may still want to go through triage stuff. Fine but it makes sure its being handled as a priority call. I don't think an ambulance is ALWAYS mobilised before the triage call part (there isn't always one available!) but if you have given them enough to know they need to pull all the stops they can start looking for resources further away.

For Red 1 calls (most urgent) the clock for the 8 minute response time starts as the call is connected. For Red 2 calls the clock starts up to 1 minute later depending on how long it takes to assess urgency. So I'd want them to know quickly if I'm Red 1 or Red 2.

On the VHF side of things, thanks, I will read the book again, sheepishly! It wasn't covered in the course, and I purchased the book after I had passed the course...Since the Coastguard released the "stop calling us!" memos, I have stopped this practice anyway. Just a pest that a lot of places on this end of the country don't have many other options to perform a radio check...

on the 999 ambulance - Well they don't know what's wrong until you tell them, or am I mis-understanding you? All the emergency call handler knows is there's a 999 being passed, not until the scripted question "What's wrong, tell me exactly what happened" is asked and answered do they know what happened, and I have had various answers that included "I'm lost" and "My medication has run out, go to the hospital and bring it to me", (Both having a resource tasked until the call went Green after triage)

It's not a "wanting to go through the triage stuff" it's a requirement - but given, if you said cardiac arrest (they would still have to ask, is the patient conscious and is the patient breathing..it's a depressingly american based script which is anti-litigation as well as triage based - And yes, I have had a cardiac arrest call go Yellow as I was once told patient was in cardiac arrest, not conc, not breathing and yet the caller spoke to them and got answers to their questions, leading to having to re-ask the caller and then clarify with them that someone who is talking to you might well be conc and breathing... (Drugs!) ) and the responses resulted in a red call, it's not really going to be anything less than a full blue and twos, probably with both a response car and ambulance being tasked initially.

I didn't actually say always mobilised, but ALWAYS being arranged from point of contact even if the caller says "I'm lost" as the problem! - even if the nearest available resource is 80 odd miles away, they are notified that they are the closest resource and to prepare to mobilise - resource could include Red Cross ambulance, Doctor on call, Volunteer First Responder car...whatever they've got. Within the average 2 minutes it takes to triage the call, if the call goes Green then the resource will be stood down, or downgraded to wait for further information.

Not sure if it's changed since I was a call handler (2006) - But there's Purple, Red, Yellow and Green calls - I never came across Red1 or Red2 in the service.

 

[ShinyShoe]

Red 1 and Red 2 are relatively new but may be renamed purple or red locally.

Red 1 clock starts immediately for 8min response.
Red 2 clock starts depending on triage, resource or Max 60second delay,

Do you need to triage if health professional calls...

 

[ShinyShoe]

If I am alone and needing to do CPR your questions ain't being answered.
If I have help... Ask away...
If I tell you they are in cardiac arrest and I am alone fill in ur own answers to the questions. But you'll know I'm not spinning you a line because its a well rehearsed call with what you need given clearly and concisely. Much in the same way as the VHF call that clearly says my boat is on fire crew all in lifejackets and we are preparing liferaft should get immediate tasking of resource where some further probing would be justified to a call saying... I think there is either smoke or steam coming from the engine... if both are the same incident the allocated resource will be the same but in the latter example tasking may be a minute later once enough info is known...

If its taking too long to get answers or the answers are still vague the tasking will be the same.

But there is a responsibility for the caller to not over talk something. So if in fact I have steam from the engine room and am going to investigate I'd be considering calling CG but I would not use any pro word and would say we are INVESTIGATING smoke or steam from engine room. This is position. All crew in lifejackets etc. We will call back with sit rep in x minutes. No assistance is currently requested.

Likewise if I can see someone lying on a beech at the bottom of a cliff not moving and not looking like they are sun bathing. I might call and say I've seen this and am going to investigate. But I can't call and say in cardiac arrest if I don't know they are...

 

[chanelyacht]

And I have known it happen, in the Solent about four or five years ago. One boat transmitted a DSC Distress only, another called in a voice Mayday a few minutes later. I can't really remember the details but there was quite some confusion before the Coastguard definitely established that they were different vessels.

Pete

Yep, had to do that. Also had to decipher 8 DSC distresses within about 30 seconds as people heard one and thought the right thing to do was hit the big red button themselves - probably the most important lesson from doing the course . We don't like DSC distresses, it makes a big noise and we spill our coffee and spray out bits of doughnut. 8 is definately NOT on

 

[ShinyShoe]

Yep, had to do that. Also had to decipher 8 DSC distresses within about 30 seconds as people heard one and thought the right thing to do was hit the big red button themselves - probably the most important lesson from doing the course . We don't like DSC distresses, it makes a big noise and we spill our coffee and spray out bits of doughnut. 8 is definately NOT on

Somehow it would seem sensible for the CG system to auto acknowledge so that there is no lag of even a few seconds leaving people confused what's happening...

I do still think the GMDSS system was badly designed not not either automatically relay or at least offer the option to relay... All cancelled by an acknowledge message.

 

[Birdseye]

Can anyone advise how id stand on this?

We have a vhf dsc radio on board
I dont have the relevant certificate pf license to operate it.

Im aware i can leave it alone and im also aware of the necessity of the radio and how to use it properly

The reason i ask, i had a lesson in handling over the weekend and thought it went well. I'd like to try more practise, just a short pootle about the marina and loch, maybe a few mile circuit at most

How would my lack of vhf paperwork stand me in this instance? Even if i left it switched off?

Get on with it. Sure there are legalities but your chances of being caught are absolutely minute. Just ask this lot on the forum who has had his licence checked at sea or the marina by Ofcom - I doubt you will find one person. Inb any event your safety is more impoirtant than a ticking of from some jobsworth and I say that as an authorised SRC teacher / examiner.

It makes sense to do the SRC course - getting the GMDSS system to work for you when you need it is more likely / quicker if you know what you shopuld be doing. That said the coastguard / lifeboat will still look after you if you dont have the correct bit of paper and call for help in the wrong way.

 

[ShinyShoe]

It makes sense to do the SRC course - getting the GMDSS system to work for you when you need it is more likely / quicker if you know what you shopuld be doing. That said the coastguard / lifeboat will still look after you if you dont have the correct bit of paper and call for help in the wrong way.

Provided they get the right info from your "wrong way"
http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Achieve.pdf

 

[Birdseye]

They'll sort you out.

 

[ShinyShoe]

Im sure they will but in the example I provided it took 45 minutes to sort out..

 

[symondo]

I was down doing some work today so i had the radio on to listen to what goes on.

 

[Spyro]

I was down doing some work today so i had the radio on to listen to what goes on.

Mostly nothing like you get on the course.

 

[chanelyacht]

Somehow it would seem sensible for the CG system to auto acknowledge so that there is no lag of even a few seconds leaving people confused what's happening...

That couldn't work.

The station acknowledging assumes coordination. DSC distresses, especially MF ones, can travel a long way. An auto acknowledge could leave me responsible for coordinating a response in another MRCCs, or another country's, SAR region - when I would have no access to their resources.

The first thing we do with a positioned DSC distress (and not all are) is check who's coordinating area it's in. We don't have the system capability to match geographical areas to DSC calls to do that automatically - and in any case, we may wish not to - for example, a DSC distress off, say, Keyhaven is in Solent's patch - but if I know they're running 5 jobs already, I'll take it as I have access to their resources. I couldn't currently do the same for a neighbouring station on the other side.

 

[prv]

I do still think the GMDSS system was badly designed not not either automatically relay or at least offer the option to relay...

AFAIK the full system does provide that, but our Class D stations are not trusted with it

Pete

 

[ShinyShoe]

That couldn't work.

The station acknowledging assumes coordination. DSC distresses, especially MF ones, can travel a long way. An auto acknowledge could leave me responsible for coordinating a response in another MRCCs, or another country's, SAR region - when I would have no access to their resources.

The first thing we do with a positioned DSC distress (and not all are) is check who's coordinating area it's in. We don't have the system capability to match geographical areas to DSC calls to do that automatically - and in any case, we may wish not to - for example, a DSC distress off, say, Keyhaven is in Solent's patch - but if I know they're running 5 jobs already, I'll take it as I have access to their resources. I couldn't currently do the same for a neighbouring station on the other side.

Oh I was expecting to use some technology to define the geography of it and know who should auto-acknowledge. And then if Solent is busy that they would pass it to someone else. Basically if it was in the UK SAR Area a "We've heard you" automatically to kill the need for relays...