boat use without a vhf license?

[Melody]

It's no where near long enough.

+1

It's a big syllabus and needs this amount of time. Schools can ask students to do up to 3 hours study beforehand, which is normally things like learning the phonetic alphabet, Prowords, Channels to use for different things, or learning correct format for a Distress call ( not all of these but one or two of them )

If you already know these things, it reduces the time to 7 hours but many people take quite a while just to learn the alphabet.

I suspect those who think the course could be shorter wouldn't pass the written exam.

 

[sailorman]

+1

It's a big syllabus and needs this amount of time. Schools can ask students to do up to 3 hours study beforehand, which is normally things like learning the phonetic alphabet, Prowords, Channels to use for different things, or learning correct format for a Distress call ( not all of these but one or two of them )

If you already know these things, it reduces the time to 7 hours but many people take quite a while just to learn the alphabet.

I suspect those who think the course could be shorter wouldn't pass the written exam.

a driving test is shorter :encouragement:

 

[Vara]

+1

It's a big syllabus and needs this amount of time. Schools can ask students to do up to 3 hours study beforehand, which is normally things like learning the phonetic alphabet, Prowords, Channels to use for different things, or learning correct format for a Distress call ( not all of these but one or two of them )

If you already know these things, it reduces the time to 7 hours but many people take quite a while just to learn the alphabet.

I suspect those who think the course could be shorter wouldn't pass the written exam.

the greatest supporters of the course and the exam seem to be connected to Sailing Schools...just saying!!

A lot of the syllabus is a relic of older and less clear forms of radio transmission, I can't remember the last VHF transmission I heard where the phonetic alphabet was actually needed, pro words, same detail, useful but not strictly necessary, channel allocation, important, most radios now display it, or a two minute reference to the relevant page in manual or Reeds should do it. Some of the procedures like mayday and Panpan are unnecessesarily complicated and present the information in the wrong order (IMO), they need to be brought up to date.

The new course concerning DSC should be shorter, as the machine now does what had to be done verbally in olden days.

I would say that I have been using VHF radios in various roles for real or as an amateur for 46 years.

 

[davidpbo]

How many people doing what the o.p. intends have ever been asked for an operators licence?

 

[ghostlymoron]

a driving test is shorter :encouragement:

a) A driving test is 1 to 1,
b) A driving test is A TEST, learning to drive typically takes 20hrs of lessons

 

[ghostlymoron]

the greatest supporters of the course and the exam seem to be connected to Sailing Schools...just saying!!

A lot of the syllabus is a relic of older and less clear forms of radio transmission, I can't remember the last VHF transmission I heard where the phonetic alphabet was actually needed, pro words, same detail, useful but not strictly necessary, channel allocation, important, most radios now display it, or a two minute reference to the relevant page in manual or Reeds should do it. Some of the procedures like mayday and Panpan are unnecessesarily complicated and present the information in the wrong order (IMO), they need to be brought up to date.

The new course concerning DSC should be shorter, as the machine now does what had to be done verbally in olden days.

I would say that I have been using VHF radios in various roles for real or as an amateur for 46 years.

I agree that the syllabus should be changed but, when I did the course (and passed the test), I left feeling that I still didn't know how to deal with some situations e.g. calling a large vessel of unknown name in a possible collision situation. My course was spread over 2 days.

 

[Melody]

the greatest supporters of the course and the exam seem to be connected to Sailing Schools...just saying!!

That could be because we know more about the content of the course than some of the people who claim it isn't useful.

Knowing how to correctly give a Distress or Urgency message could make the difference between you or another boat getting help. If reception is poor you're more likely to be understood if you use standard terms.

I wonder how many people who don't think a radio licence is necessary are also those who think things like a life raft or life raft servicing are unnecessary?

You may never need to use the radio but, if you do, seeing flares in a stormy sea or in a potential collision situation with a large vessel for instance, surely it's better to know what to do and how to do it instead of having to guess, get the manual out, or send a routine call to the Coastguard?

The RYA Marine Radio Operator's course certainly isn't perfect and many schools have some criticisms of the new course in particular but it is pretty good and a lot shorter than in most other countries, where you have to spend up to a week studying.

By the way, if you want to charter in Croatia you will be asked to show a radio operator's licence as well as a sailing licence these days (although it doesn't have to be the same person who has both). I think other countries may follow suit.

The exam itself only takes an hour - half for the written paper and half for doing the practical work.

 

[dunedin]

How many people doing what the o.p. intends have ever been asked for an operators licence?

Good question. 40 years sailing and never been asked for it in the UK

 

[ShinyShoe]

I agree that the syllabus should be changed but, when I did the course (and passed the test), I left feeling that I still didn't know how to deal with some situations e.g. calling a large vessel of unknown name in a possible collision situation. My course was spread over 2 days.

So have you worked out yet that VHF should not be used for collision avoidance?

However to call a vessel of unknown name the best approach would be to call something like:

Large Red Vessel on course 259degrees 3 miles south of some landmark this is Yacht Nosuch, over.

the greatest supporters of the course and the exam seem to be connected to Sailing Schools...just saying!!

...

The new course concerning DSC should be shorter, as the machine now does what had to be done verbally in olden days.

I would say that I have been using VHF radios in various roles for real or as an amateur for 46 years.

I have no link to the sailing schools but do support the need for the course. I have taught VHF use to field medical teams for years before I did my DSC course. So I was perfectly capable of using a radio and things like phonetics and the majority of pro words etc were common sense. But DSC actually adds extra complications rather than simplifying things. Yes if its all gone t**s up you can just get away with hitting the red button and doing nothing else. But to make things work better you should still follow the standard voice procedure anyway. Very few people seem to use the designation functions for distress. Add to the complication that a Mayday is a Distress and a PanPan in an Urgency and a MayDay Relay doesn't properly exist so has to be fudged with Urgency.

Then there are some technical bits about aerials etc that seem unique to boats to me. Don't ever remember a building aerial on a 30degree angle.

Plus they chuck in some stuff on EPIRBS etc. When I did it I dont think PLBs existed. Think the things that crop up on here re differences of EPIRB and PLB need covered. Need to register etc is also a key message...

Good question. 40 years sailing and never been asked for it in the UK

I don't expect many have in the UK. But my reason for supporting that people should do the course is the same reason that people should learn resuscitation including defibrillation, do firedrills etc. For those of you who have ever dialled 999 - I bet the first time you did it even though you knew someone was going to say "emergency which service" were probably then caught out with the operator connecting you to the service and talking over you to give your phone number. And then unless you had any training I bet the service operator had to ask you for pieces of information to get all that was needed...
None of those things I've listed are absolutely essential to have practices to do them if no-one is trained then someone should just do it... BUT... ...if its routine it becomes automatic and things flow smoother.

I do wonder if I was at sea in an open boat and received a Mayday that needed relayed if I'd actually get all the info captured to relay it. But its not something I can easily test...

 

[ricky_s]

I have no link to the sailing schools but do support the need for the course. I have taught VHF use to field medical teams for years before I did my DSC course. So I was perfectly capable of using a radio and things like phonetics and the majority of pro words etc were common sense. But DSC actually adds extra complications rather than simplifying things. Yes if its all gone t**s up you can just get away with hitting the red button and doing nothing else. But to make things work better you should still follow the standard voice procedure anyway. Very few people seem to use the designation functions for distress. Add to the complication that a Mayday is a Distress and a PanPan in an Urgency and a MayDay Relay doesn't properly exist so has to be fudged with Urgency.

So just buy the RYA book and read it. How is going on the course going to give you more than that?

 

[tonygibbs]

So just buy the RYA book and read it. How is going on the course going to give you more than that?

+1. I did the VHF course in 1995 and in that time I had never used the VHF radio in earnest. Nowadays, given the DSC aspect of the course, should I really do the course again? I am just going to get the updated RYA booklet and let my crew (wife) read it just in case.

 

[FishyInverness]

. For those of you who have ever dialled 999 - I bet the first time you did it even though you knew someone was going to say "emergency which service" were probably then caught out with the operator connecting you to the service and talking over you to give your phone number. And then unless you had any training I bet the service operator had to ask you for pieces of information to get all that was needed...
None of those things I've listed are absolutely essential to have practices to do them if no-one is trained then someone should just do it... BUT... ...if its routine it becomes automatic and things flow smoother.

Thread drift but +1 - From the Emergency Control Room point of view "Operator, please split the line" was an oft-repeated call so you could get the caller's number or all you heard was the shouting and screaming of "Get an ambulance, send it now, we need an ambulance now!" Even when you'd managed to get the line split so the operator can pass the number, you got back to the panicking, screaming person who think screaming down te line what the problem is tells you what exactly has happened, the casualties state, and, where it's actally happening! - Education stops panic, panic when trying to communicate never improves matters!

 

[jerrytug]

Thread drift but +1 - From the Emergency Control Room point of view "Operator, please split the line" was an oft-repeated call so you could get the caller's number or all you heard was the shouting and screaming of "Get an ambulance, send it now, we need an ambulance now!" Even when you'd managed to get the line split so the operator can pass the number, you got back to the panicking, screaming person who think screaming down te line what the problem is tells you what exactly has happened, the casualties state, and, where it's actally happening! - Education stops panic, panic when trying to communicate never improves matters!

Further thread drift, what info should I give, in what order, to get the ambulance quickest? cheers Jerry

PS anyone who seriously thinks they don't need training on marine VHF is uninformed or just being a c0ck, in my humble opinion.

 

[FishyInverness]

Further thread drift, what info should I give, in what order, to get the ambulance quickest? cheers Jerry

*Puts on ex-official hat* - Telephone Number, Address, then repeat each if asked - then listen carefully and respond to each question stating "don't know" if the question is irrelevant (They are scripted sadly, the operator gets "audited" if they don't ask it...don't get me started!) The ambulance is always being arranged from the first time the address has been confirmed - the questions do not delay the response - but the triage questions then can "downgrade" the call, to allow the management to say "ok, we didn't make it in 8 minutes, but it's ok, it wasn't that serious" - it's a statistics thing and allows them to justify not spending money on more resources! (Ok, a bit cynical there, it is actually a good system for triaging the seriousness of a condition!)

*Takes off official hat and recites what one of the paramedics told me to say* "This is the address, this is my phone number, I am not answering your triage questions, this is what has happened, please send the ambulance" - This, while I think possibly unethical, means that the Concsious and Breathing questions go to "unknown" and so results as a "red" or possibly "purple" call. Of course, this is from a medical professional point of view, if the casualty is seriously injured and you have no medical training for stabilising them, this is a VERY BAD piece of advice, as the call handlers are trained and scripted to provide basic instruction on stabilising the patient.

Meanwhile...back to VHF...

 

[jerrytug]

Very interesting, thanks Fishy I.

 

[chanelyacht]

Some of the procedures like mayday and Panpan are unnecessesarily complicated and present the information in the wrong order (IMO), they need to be brought up to date.

.

Really?

Bearing in mind it has to be a world standard, understandable by people who's first language may not be English, which bits would you suggest are redundant or in the wrong place?

I don't see how how can cut down much on MIPNANOO!

Mayday
Identity
Position
Nature of Distress
Assistance Required
Number of Persons
Other info
Out.

It's not rocket science!

 

[ricky_s]

PS anyone who seriously thinks they don't need training on marine VHF is uninformed or just being a c0ck, in my humble opinion.

GMDSS (Global Maritime Distress and Safety System) uses DSC for an automatic distress signal.
See for more details http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/gmdss.pdf
Using DSC for Mayday enables an automatic transmission of both the Mayday signal and your present position, providing your DSC set is interfaced with a GPS.
Just lift or slide the safety latch and press the red Mayday DISTRESS button (far right in the photo above). Some sets allow you to specify the type of distress eg 'Sinking'.
Wait about 15 seconds for a DSC acknowledgement from the Coastguard or a ship station. On Ch16, on receipt of a DSC acknowledgement or after about 15 seconds, send a voice Distress call:
Mayday, Mayday, Mayday
This is ‘YACHT NAME.................’, spoken three times
Mayday – NAME and ‘MMSI* or call sign’, spoken once
My Position is…………….
Nature of Distress………………
Assistance required…………..
Number on board (total crew + skipper)........
Other information
Over

How is a two day course going to make me better at doing the above?

 

[TSB240]

I know its a bit of thread drift but I wonder if the Op is registered on the CG66 safety scheme.?

I have only just signed up to this and suspect that there still probably many like me who were too lazy to do this via a snail mail but I found the ease of online form filling a positive bonus.

https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/cg66/

The reason I mention this as I witnessed a DSC mayday "accidental alert" at close range to us when cruising to the IOM earlier this year.

The CG was calling an MMSI but NO BOAT NAME for ages , which suggested the MARS Data base was not being used or of little use.
I certainly I didnt know my MMSI number neither did the Fishing Boat that responded saying it was him when it wasnt!

In a half hour period THE CG continued to arrange for 2 lifeboats and 4 larger commercial craft to divert to this "false alarm" to an MMSI no. at a given location.
Eventually the "casualty owned up" to finger trouble or some other excuse.

If this boat had been on the CG66 scheme presumably they would have had the boat name, Colour , Owner Info, etc and would have resolved the situation a lot quicker.

I wonder if the owner of Bonne Idea is now registered with CG66?

 

[ghostlymoron]

Ricky, There's more to using a VHF/DSC than just sending maydays. I've never yet sent a mayday but have used tthohe radio a lot. I have been assisted by RNLI (to whom I'm eternally grateful) but them have been sent out after calls to HMCG (who are also wonderfully efficient). I've never used DSC (like most sailers I suspect)

 

[ricky_s]

Ricky, There's more to using a VHF/DSC than just sending maydays. I've never yet sent a mayday but have used tthohe radio a lot. I have been assisted by RNLI (to whom I'm eternally grateful) but them have been sent out after calls to HMCG (who are also wonderfully efficient). I've never used DSC (like most sailers I suspect)

I am aware of that and I've used one for many years, mainly discussing berthing with a marina. I've never had to issue a Mayday or a PanPan but I know how to do it though I've never been on a course. That said, I can't imagine reading out my call sign and mmsi number with water splashing around my ankles.