Boat Size - space vs practicality

I’ll help make the case for a big boat. Big means space and comfort and we have not found it a handful or so much more expensive. We bought ours for pretty much the same price as a typical 40 something AWB (no disrespect intended). We can handle her ourselves without rolling reefing, hydraulics or powered winches etc (she is a schooner). In the UK the marinas did a deal on their published winter rates and our boat size made the winters more comfortable.

In heavy weather a big boat is superior and makes faster passages. We carry 3 tons of water so manage without a water maker or plastic containers tied to the rails. There is room on deck for solar panels, a good size ridged dingy, anchors, sea kayak etc and we don’t end up looking like a stall in a boat jumble.

A big boat make a much better family home. The kids have cabins of their own and a spare cabin for their toys.

At anchor the deck space is a real bonus and our greater displacement means we roll less or more predictably so we spend more time at anchor.
 
Within reason I think Mike Bryon is right..If you were to say we will not 'do' marinas unless it is a really fantastic 12 month deal, for example, and we plan to spend most of our time where anchoring is reliable and actually more comfortable ( Caribbean for example) then that extra 10 foot boat may not be that much more to run than the smaller choice of boat.

..What you do in return get is more Choice: Weather windows, upwind routes and possibilities, when to top up tanks, where to sleep on board, where to stow all those ''one off'' items such as sewing machine, tool kit and storm sails that boats like to carry..where to sit, where to put stuff because the lockers tend to be better shaped and more copious..

Smart thinking will find a well built larger boat without too much fussy wood to maintain. Bargains galore in the States right now.

Having said that, I lived pretty comfortably on a 21 foot boat for some years, and latterly two up.
The boat 'grew' internally as I sorted it, twin keels meant NO expensive haulouts and very few harbour dues indeed, outboard motor cost half of next-to-nothing to run and maintain..You certainly had to go with the flow, weather and wind wise, and it was a lot more pleasant in the tropics than in temperate winter zones but all seasons still do-able.
 
Blueboatman said:
then that extra 10 foot boat may not be that much more to run than the smaller choice of boat.

..
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I really do have to express my disagreement over the running costs of a larger boat. Whipper snapper has it about right in an earlier post when he says:-
"Very roughly, cost, worry, hassle, time, effort to do anything, scale with the length of the boat cubed. Think about cost of a new halyard, effort the take off and put on the main, ease and cost of replacing a roller reefing system etc etc."

There speaks experience!

Take any example you like , anchors, re rigging, sails, antifouling and you will find the cost accelerate unbelievably with size. It is not just expensive mooring costs that can be evaded by anchoring

If you can afford it fine, otherwise beware!
 
So much of this is down to how much cash you've got to start with, both ready cash and ongoing income. I for one will never (short of winning some cash) be able to afford a half decent 50 foot anything, or 40 something foot cat. And I don't think I'd ever go that big anyway. For me having less money, more freedom works, your plans/ideas for the future and your mindset are critical, e.g. stopping being a mortgage slave, taking a less stressful or more enjoyable job, working part time, retiring early, simplyfing your life, whatever. There are some people who could probably never do it on a sub 30-footer, conditions would be just too primitive, in which case obviously get bigger, which may mean less likely to go for a spur of the moment sail, more income needed to maintain, etc.

Notice OP hasn't got back to us yet and it's ended up everyone telling their own story (which is fine it's interesting reading). I think my advice FWIW would be go and see loads of boats and get a bit bigger than the smallest you think you would be comfortable with, assuming you can afford that. I ended up with a roomy 9M (easier to say that than 29.5 footer) after originally thinking 36/38 foot & spent significantly less money than I thought I would be originally...

And finally may we all be happy in whatever boat we end up in...:)
 
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oldsaltoz said:
I'm not yet full time live aboard, however when selecting the boat I chose time honoured system of using a spread sheet and listing all the things I wanted to do and have available, then found I missed a couple of hundred lines for items I had given no thought to some types of boats and designs had as standard.

It took 3 years to complete the list and filter though all the boats I could find that I considered worth checking against the list, then almost 4 years to find the boat.

As we are based on the East coast of Oz we need a boat with very good ventilation, a huge cockpit, fixed B-B-Q and fish cutting board with at least 4 rod holders. Plenty of refrigeration capacity, must hold at least 2 slabs of beer and still have capacity for ice making.

Be able to walk right round the deck fighting that big fish, have room to stow a good size rubber duck, an electric anchor winch and plenty of chain, rope not much use around coral reefs.

Minimum 3 cabins not including the lounge, helps reduce the number of drunk drivers. Two wet lockers for wet suits and diving gear and a locker for all fishing tackle.

A good size shower and electric toilet with a vanity unit along side it. Fuel capacity of 300 litres and the same for drinking water both are only filled to capacity on long trips.

Able to take to ground with no fuss and no legs and a draft of less than 0.5 metres.

Yes it's a 42 foot cat and I'm loving it and have done for a few years now.

Avagoodweekend......:)
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I was really enjoying this and thinking "right, dump the house rental, clear out all the unused clobber collected over the last 20 years and go get a liveaboard", then you hit me with a 'Cat' and I thought b****r, that's no use.

But I thought a bit more...

I've been considering changing my lifestyle as it's become too cluttered with 'things' that have resulted from many hobbies and no wife/family, no need for bricks and mortar, nothing apart from the job to keep me tied to one place and when thinking 'sailing' = yacht, why shouldn't yacht = liveaboard? I've just assumed that liveaboard yacht = monohull, but in some ways the space of a cat is attractive; what's the downside? Are they seakindly, will they see you safe through a force 10 on the Bay of Biscay? I know nothing about Cats seaworthiness and suitability for single handed sailing.

Do marinas (in the UK) charge for length x2 or what?

I currently spend pcm: £1,400 on rent, £200 on council tax, £100 on utilities; after that it's just living expenses, running a car and hobbies. How does the £1,700 pcm translate into liveaboard costs bearing in mind that I'd need a marine mortgage for the boat (good quality, used cruiser - or maybe a Cat)?

Can anyone enlighten?
 
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Phideaux said:
I was really enjoying this and thinking "right, dump the house rental, clear out all the unused clobber collected over the last 20 years and go get a liveaboard", then you hit me with a 'Cat' and I thought b****r, that's no use.

But I thought a bit more...

I've been considering changing my lifestyle as it's become too cluttered with 'things' that have resulted from many hobbies and no wife/family, no need for bricks and mortar, nothing apart from the job to keep me tied to one place and when thinking 'sailing' = yacht, why shouldn't yacht = liveaboard? I've just assumed that liveaboard yacht = monohull, but in some ways the space of a cat is attractive; what's the downside? Are they seakindly, will they see you safe through a force 10 on the Bay of Biscay? I know nothing about Cats seaworthiness and suitability for single handed sailing.



Do marinas (in the UK) charge for length x2 or what?

I currently spend pcm: £1,400 on rent, £200 on council tax, £100 on utilities; after that it's just living expenses, running a car and hobbies. How does the £1,700 pcm translate into liveaboard costs bearing in mind that I'd need a marine mortgage for the boat?

Can anyone enlighten?
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Not sure what a marina berth is in the UK but in Australia it is 10 to 15 thousand AU$ a year, and some charge extra fro power.

After 30 years of sailing monohulls I delivered a few large cats to new owners and found they had some very nice features, like being able to sit in the cabin and have an almost 360 degree view, rather than having to stand a peep through a small side window or go up the ladder. Cats have a huge cockpit with a very comfortable swivel steering seat and seating for 8 to 16 people.
The fact that your drink is still where you put it before tacking is still there is also good, no items falling over or cluttering the cabin floor. More light in the saloon and less in the cabins prolongs sleep. A stable platform at rest and when sailing means less risks. Good access to all areas and items because things don't have to crammed in to areas to 'save space'. Shallow draught allow to get into areas others can't, you can set her down on a beach with no fuss and clean the hulls, check anodes or just sit underneath and get out of the sun and be on the sand. with twin engines manoeuvring is very easy and you can turn inside your own length. Single handed sailing is a breeze and safer with a level deck.

The list goes on and on. I still love monohull boats but like the open space and freedom of a cat.

The best thing to do is hire a mono about the size you think you need to live on, then after a week or so change to cat and keep a list of what you thing is best/worst about both. Note a 30 foot has the space of a 40 foot mono, but will cost more than a 40 foot mono to buy and to put into a marina.

Avagoodweekend......:)
 
oldsaltoz said:
Not sure what a marina berth is in the UK but in Australia it is 10 to 15 thousand AU$ a year, and some charge extra fro power.

After 30 years of sailing monohulls I delivered a few large cats to new owners and found they had some very nice features, like being able to sit in the cabin and have an almost 360 degree view, rather than having to stand a peep through a small side window or go up the ladder. Cats have a huge cockpit with a very comfortable swivel steering seat and seating for 8 to 16 people.
The fact that your drink is still where you put it before tacking is still there is also good, no items falling over or cluttering the cabin floor. More light in the saloon and less in the cabins prolongs sleep. A stable platform at rest and when sailing means less risks. Good access to all areas and items because things don't have to crammed in to areas to 'save space'. Shallow draught allow to get into areas others can't, you can set her down on a beach with no fuss and clean the hulls, check anodes or just sit underneath and get out of the sun and be on the sand. with twin engines manoeuvring is very easy and you can turn inside your own length. Single handed sailing is a breeze and safer with a level deck.

The list goes on and on. I still love monohull boats but like the open space and freedom of a cat.

The best thing to do is hire a mono about the size you think you need to live on, then after a week or so change to cat and keep a list of what you thing is best/worst about both. Note a 30 foot has the space of a 40 foot mono, but will cost more than a 40 foot mono to buy and to put into a marina.

Avagoodweekend......:)
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Ok. Sounds good, but...

I have a game plan of sailing single-handed from the UK to the Falkland Islands (return) in 2014-15 (got to have a plan, else I'd stay doing what I'm doing). I've researched monohuls within my budget assuming all my shore-based £££ commitments continue and am/was looking at a 30'-35' 1970's boat (Dufour Arpege being a current favourite).

However, if I get rid of the bricks and mortar rental millstone and put all my current rental into a marine mortgage I could afford something a bit better than a 30' 1970's. Whether "something better" would in deed be better than above might be questionable, but from the outset I'd decided I wanted some home comforts like decent heads, shower, refrigeration in the galley (even a freezer), microwave, TV, internet, and computing. I'd also want to maintain some of my interests, mainly for a marine environment - photography and diving (so bottle storage and an onboard compressor). The main thing is that I'd need to be 'suited & booted' during the week to meet with job (that pays for my lifestyle), but free to slob at weekends, or go sailing, diving, shooting, flying, wenching (I wish). But also free to say "bugger it" I'm sailing to xxx for the next 10 days.

I'm sure that a Cat will do all of the above, apart from UK to Stanley (return). How many Cats have singlehandedly non-stop circumnavigated? (not that I have any intention, just trying to assess how Cats bear-up weatherwise in the Southern Ocean)
 
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Phideaux said:
Cheers, I shall read and research.
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Tiny bit of help , here's the smallest dive compressor I've been able to find (the MCH 6/SH - 3.5 cfm Honda Petrol on that page). FWIW it sounds like you'll have to compromise too much if try to use one boat to live on comfortably to then sail to Falklands. You have a lot of options I think, with the amount of disposable income you will have when you stop renting. So what about buying something to live on & use now, then sell that after 4/5 years to get something more suitable for doing the Falklands trip? Good luck!
 
A book putting the case for the larger yacht

John and Linda Elmes chose to circumnavigate in a Tayana 55, even though there were only two of them aboard almost all the time and it was their first yacht. Here's their book:
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/buy-a-big-yacht-and-sail-off-round-the-world/1550136

One point not made so far is that if you are away from shore support and doing your own maintenance this can be significantly easier on a well-designed larger yacht. I know a number of yachts that got into a downward spiral of difficulty because systems were shoehorned into inadequate space making maintenance very hard. Small generators being a notable example.

Rallyveteran
 
I always remember at work that if you gave somebody a new filing cabinet they would fill it up. Give them two, the same happens. Boats are the same, all storage space will be filled whatever size the boat.

We've been very happy living, for nearly six years, on a 38 foot LOA boat with lots of headroom and a big engine room for the size of boat. As others have said costs rocket as size goes up.

The thought of carrying three tons of water about doesn't bear thinking about when there are such efficient water makers around.

Also small heavy displacement boats are quite happy in heavy weather, seaworthiness is not solely based on length.
 
djbreeze said:
Tiny bit of help , here's the smallest dive compressor I've been able to find (the MCH 6/SH - 3.5 cfm Honda Petrol on that page). FWIW it sounds like you'll have to compromise too much if try to use one boat to live on comfortably to then sail to Falklands. You have a lot of options I think, with the amount of disposable income you will have when you stop renting. So what about buying something to live on & use now, then sell that after 4/5 years to get something more suitable for doing the Falklands trip? Good luck!
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Nice compromise, but I think that if I moved from bricks and mortar to a boat, then I'd want to be sailing it at weekends and holidays. Also, for the Falklands plan, I'd want to gain experience sailing the boat that I was planning to use for the trip. it's really a matter of what's the sensible maximum size Cat for single-handed and the comfortable minimum size as a liveaboard?
 
From reading all of the above I think one evry important point has been missed - age!
I now find so many jobs far more difficult than they used to be - I used to be able to jump on and off my boat without any problem, but now I'm no longer so agile I need the boarding ladder!
Getting in and out of the engine space... pulling up the anchor .... painting ... up the mast ... I could go on, but I think I may have said enough for people to realise that what was possible at 40/50 or even 60! is not so easy at 70
So I feel that being able to live, use and care for your boat within your own capabilities, is a very great factor in deciding its size as the older you get the more space you seem to need.
 
In Africa, my berthing costs me £120 per month/boat (don't go there) water and electric included. I Pay £40 for the levy on my workshop and storage. £150 a month for food and drink. If I wanted to be cheap, I could go onto the trots and pay £50 a month, or anchor in the bay for zilch. I also pay £50 per year yacht club membership, which is reciprocal, so I can dine at the yacht clubs in Durban, Cape Town, Maputo etc. It's warm all year round, I don't need heating, though at the height of summer I use a little AC on deck with a chute to direct the cool air below. There is a small swimming pool in the club or a big bay to swim in (Watch out though for the Sharks, Hippos, and Crocs. Ain't got no house in the UK, do have a workshop, van and container. When the refit is complete, I will probably move onto the trots cause it's cheap and cooler. My mooring is rented out, and makes £120 a month. Explorer is the boat that I want to live on, though I may keep the TSDY for fun. At 54' she is as large as I would want to handle. I have two friends, who are liveaboard, on a 45' Spray and they are selling, because the boat is too big for them now that they are in their seventies.
 
hobgoblin said:
Not sure I would choose an Arpege. Greta boats but cramped.Look at other more cruising boats. More space.....
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I was looking at the Arpege when the plan was to live in a house and have the boat for weekends and holidays to gain the experience necessary for the Falkland Islands trip. But if I dump the house rental and go for a liveaboard, then the main question is over the compromise for the comfort of a liveaboard in a marina versus the practicalities for singlehanded sailing - be it UK coastal or heading South for the FI.

I've also been looking at the Halberg Rassey range, but they're heavy displacement and I'm not sure how seakindly they'll be in the southern Atlantic.
 
jeez, what a moany thread. My advice is to work a bit harder and get the money together to buy something really quite massive. Have two engines (loads of space) and decent generator and nice big RIB. You can be a teensy bit stingy on the outboard else you have to go find fuel all the time, so mebbe 30hp is getting large. And so on. Oh and all those big boats - they have someone helming them and it's *easier* with a big boat - not harder - iyour windage (bad) increases with the square of boat length but its inertia (good) goes up with the cube of length - big boats go where they're pointed, and stay comfy at anchor way up in the higher winds too.

Fact is, if your house is much nicer than your boat, it just isn't attractive to live in, long term. I mean - for years, not just a year or two.
 
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Freedom - You should be able to walk away....

Adding a modest pontification to this long thread....

If it is "freedom" you are after, or more practically "relative freedom" (which is purely a personal choice) a liveaboard boat should be of a financial value to you such that you can comfortably walk away from it in an emergency or catastrophe, or even lose it if the insurance company or local authorities decide to play nasty ie a liveaboard whose boat represents just 5 per cent of his total assets (including a capitalized pension if he has one) feels a heck of a lot "freer" than someone whose pride and joy represents 50%, or more.

If this means being a bit uncomfortable at times, or having to put up visitng family in a local inn, then that is the price to pay. You will also have spare cash to do a lot of other things.

Then, of course, most of us find out fairly quickly that the possessions and gadgets we used to consider essential were no more than distractions that we cultivated because we were not leading the life we wanted to. When you are sailing out your dream, you can dispense with most of them
 
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