Boat Share

[Dutch01527]

Hi

I am thinking of buying a bigger boat - c. 31 to 39 foot probably but am concerned that I might not get enough use because of business / family / geography commitments.

I have also been thinking of a boat share. Not a big professional scheme. Idea is a share with a boat owner in the South West or South Wales with a good boat in a good location, who is not getting full use out of his boat but does not want to stop sailing completely. I could either buy a share of the boat or not take a share and pay a greater but fair amount for running/mooring costs. I have looked are the boat sharing sites but not found anything suitable yet, most are for a small share which might not be as flexible as I would prefer.

Does anyone have experience of such an arrangement? Did it work? Problems?

Steve

 

[Tranona]

Fairly common arrangement. Suggest you first read the material on the RYA site on Shared Ownership which gives both the legal and practical sides of owning a boat in partnership including a specimen agreement.

Most boat shares are formed by people who already know each other, but shares can be found by advertising or using a specialist broker such as Yacht Fractions. The key to a successful boat share is having compatible partners and a clear agreement as to how it will work, including what happens if partners want to leave or the partnership breaks down.

The reasons for shared ownership are usually as you have described, but the downside is that you lose some control over the boat and for many it is the pride of ownership that is an important part of having a boat and finding a partner who has the same ideas as you, never mind the same idea about what boat to buy is the big challenge. For that reason a more structured, professionally run syndicate has a lot to recommend it as you are buying time and know exactly what you are getting. However, given the unpredictable weather in the UK, such schemes are not popular, whereas they are in the med where they are seen as an alternative to chartering - that is if you want to have, say 4-6 weeks a year holidays it is more economical to buy a 1/4 or 1/5 share in a managed syndicate.

Hopefully you will get some response from people who have done, but this subject comes up fairly regularly and there tends to be more responses that are negative than positive.

 

[Dutch01527]

I have looked at a number of professionally run / large syndicates and they were either too inflexible e.g. You get every 5th week or too expensive e.g. New boats at c£1000 for the long weekend.

I was thinking of a more pragmatic arrangement. Say a half share of an older boat with either a cash purchase of the share and 50/50 share of costs or the original owner retains the ownership and I pay all or the majority/all of the mooring and maintenance costs up to an agreed level. The latter may be less risk for both parties, easier to undo if after a season eather side decided it was not working.
I will look at the rya guidelines, thanks for the pointer.

 

[jac]

If buying a share of an existing boat though, make sure that you and youir partner can get on, especially with the former 100% owner adjusting to the fact that he now only has a 50% say. He may still feel like it's HIS boat and that he is letting you use it. His will may therefore prevail if there is any dispute.

Also he will like things done in his way - his things will be on board and he may feel aggrieved at having to move his personal posessions so that you can leave some of yours on board.

With a reasonable partner none of that will be an issue but the emotional side can be a lot harder to manage than the pure financial.

 

[Angele]

If buying a share of an existing boat though, make sure that you and youir partner can get on, especially with the former 100% owner adjusting to the fact that he now only has a 50% say. He may still feel like it's HIS boat and that he is letting you use it. His will may therefore prevail if there is any dispute.

Also he will like things done in his way - his things will be on board and he may feel aggrieved at having to move his personal posessions so that you can leave some of yours on board.

With a reasonable partner none of that will be an issue but the emotional side can be a lot harder to manage than the pure financial.

+1

I was going to say exactly the same, but Jac got there before me. I cannot imagine "letting go" if I were ever to sell a 50% share in Angele. But, for exactly that reason, I never will.

 

[Davegriff]

As others have said, the problem may be finding someone willing to 'give up' a share in their boat.

You'd be much better off either finding someone with whom to buy a boat from the outset, or taking the initiative to pruchase a boat yourself then find partner(s) in it.

I'd imagine most who already have a boat bought it for their own enjoyment - even if they were thinking of relinquishing a share, its more likely to be to a friend/current crew member.

Boat ownership is a big responsibilty, so dont expect to get a free hand at what amounts to a take-over of someone elses boat, however much you dont see it that way.

An ad or two around local yacht-clubs may just bring results.

 

[bitbaltic]

+1

I was going to say exactly the same, but Jac got there before me. I cannot imagine "letting go" if I were ever to sell a 50% share in Angele. But, for exactly that reason, I never will.

+1 to that.

Also the older the boat is, the more likely that the owner has had it for a long time, and the more likely he is to be older himself. Old boys with their old toys do not have a great track record in being flexible to the needs of complete newcomers.

 

[Tranona]

I have looked at a number of professionally run / large syndicates and they were either too inflexible e.g. You get every 5th week or too expensive e.g. New boats at c£1000 for the long weekend.

I was thinking of a more pragmatic arrangement. Say a half share of an older boat with either a cash purchase of the share and 50/50 share of costs or the original owner retains the ownership and I pay all or the majority/all of the mooring and maintenance costs up to an agreed level. The latter may be less risk for both parties, easier to undo if after a season eather side decided it was not working.
I will look at the rya guidelines, thanks for the pointer.

While your suggestion may sound pragmatic to you, as others have suggested, boat owning is a very personal thing and few people are prepared to share. Those that do work are where the partners have a common objective. So, boats used primarily for racing are often shared because racing requires resources, not least crew and individuals find it difficult to resource a competitive boat. The key thing is that the owners use the boat at the same time. The next most common are the holiday type shares, particularly in the Med. Friends pooling resources for the specific purpose of buying a boat work - provided they remain friends!

The upshot is that you are unlikely to find a stranger prepared to share as what seems logical from your point of view is not from theirs!

 

[dom]

Agree with what others say; I had a quarter share in a rib alongside three other sailors. It worked great as I'd never have used the boat enough as sole owner and ribs are kind of generic and generally fairly utilitarian.

It worked great for the occasional blast, fishing trip, whizz around the IoW, or whatever. I know a few people who are part of yacht shares, but simmering tensions seem to arise more easily than they disperse.

 

[Angele]

Hi
I have looked are the boat sharing sites but not found anything suitable yet, most are for a small share which might not be as flexible as I would prefer.

Does that include this one? http://www.boatsharefinder.co.uk/

(I was blissfully unaware of it until just now as it is mentioned on a thread over on the Mobo forum).

 

[CJ13]

Have you spoken to Chris Hawes at Yacht Fractions. He's a decent chap who will give you good advice even if you're not using his brokarage.

 

[maby]

We've never shared a boat ourselves, but we did buy a boat from a consortium that was winding up some years ago. They were a fantastic illustration of what can go wrong - everyone wanted to sail and nobody wanted to do any maintenance. It needed a great deal of work and I got the impression that there had been bad feeling between the various members.

 

[Channel Sailor]

I have been in three boat share arrangements. Shared with one other person/ family. Very successful. Mostly a 50/50 split of ownership, agreed in RYA modified template purchase documentation as 32/64s each. Co Ownership not Joint. Running costs split 50/50 as well. Worked really well. With people I knew already. With a 50/50 split you can have a fairly flexible arrangement. But it is a long term arrangement such as a 5 year expectation before considering selling or upgrading. I would say that With 3 or 4 in a syndicate the arrangements and opportunities to improve/enhance the yacht or do diy (cheaper) maintenance would reduce, it would be more like a charter than ownership, a shorter term such as a 2 years might be acceptable.

In my experiences one person kept the accounts on a spreadsheet to record all costs incurred, by whom, for what, when and balancing reimbursements (every few months) made. Any expenditure over a set value has to be agreed with the other person first. Small repair purchases does not need agreement in advance. Very small value purchases may not be recorded as not worth the effort. If it something breaks due to misuse when you are using or you lose it over the side it then you pay for it. If normal use and it breaks then share cost of repair/replacement. Insurance covers major issues such as running around damage or collision. The boat and most of its inventory is joint shared but some items might be owned by only one of the Co Owners because they are the only one that wants it. The tender and outboard can be part of the boat share. Fuel and gas purchases are simply split 50/50 unless each persons use is very different.

Each owner would want to be reassured the other is competent to sail the yacht in the sea areas planned. A complete novice for one of the owners could be seen a risk to the early years of the arrangement. For example one owner dents the stem on a pontoon,or rips the Genoa, then the boat is unavailable to the other until it is repaired.

Who has the yacht when is mapped out in advance for the year. Every other weekend and a fair share of the school holiday weeks. Bank holidays swap every year as well. Sometimes it is better to have two weekends on the trot each because there is less clearing of the yacht involved if you are the person using it the following weekend. Changes are possible during the year but at least the baseline is set out.

The person you share with I think usefully needs to:-

Want to sail the yacht for similar voyages, destinations and in similar conditions. For example racing or cruising, never out in a F7 and above or will be out in a gale, usually within 60 miles of safe haven or further afield. If one wants to cross Biscay and the other does not then gear for Biscay is bought and owned by the one that wants it. Tough luck if it is screwed to the yacht.
Wish to have the same type of mooring e.g. Marina, swinging, drying, non shore connected pontoon.
Have the same view on haul out in winter or leave in all year round.
Have the same view as to what will be diy maintenance and what will be paid to a yard.
Have a similar amount of time and commitment for the agreed level of diy maintenance,
Have similar standards for safety and therefore safety equipment on board such as liferaft, mob gear, AIS, radar and other technology,
Have similar standards for tidiness and cleanliness,
Maybe similar levels of disposable income might make it easier as well. For example when you come sell out then how low can each person afford to sell at to exit promptly.
Have similar expectations for expenditure on extras such as how often to replace sails, buying chutes, spinnakers and storm sails,
Wants matching clean fenders with socks or not, matching dock lines or not, strictly deck shoes on board or suffers black marks on decks, anchor chain and anchors fit for Channel Isles/Severn or just local etc.

Usefully with two owners you can share or have help with delivery trips to new cruising grounds. One owner could holiday taking the yacht to say Ireland and the other could holiday to bring it home. Also if one breaks down away from home base then the other owner can often offer to help with fixing the problem such as sourcing and delivery of spares.

 

[BelleSerene]

We shared before our current boat. As others have said, it's all about the relationship: you need pragmatic partners with similar needs - and similar values. Two observations of ours:

1. The time you get to sail in practice ends up less than your share of weekends - unless you're happy to sail whatever the weather. When the boat's your own, if the weather's foul you do something else and go sailing another weekend. But when you've divided the calendar between you and your partners, if you don't use it on your weekend that's just tough luck. So don't overestimate the amount of sailing you'll actually get for your share.

2. We're all wired to invest more in what we feel a future in. You - and your partners - will put less effort into maintaining and improving the boat than if she were your own. May be fine with partners with similar values and aspirations, but again you'll get less out of it than if it were your own for the simple reason that you'll all be putting less into it.

All that said, sharing something important with others is a lovely thing to do and can also bring sailing within financial means. Good luck - and enjoy!

 

[ianat182]

Be aware that if using a Crown Commission mooring only one person will be named as the user;this will probably entail the remaining owner registering on the waiting list from scratch for a mooring,or being registered during the duration of the share,this registration is a £30 annual fee with no guarantee of the original mooring being offered.I am in a Joint ownership but even so this still applies( I wonder how changes on a commercially owned mooring avoid this problem; our mooring on the Hamble is our tackle and our maintenance responsibility. A family member can take over the mooring in the case of the named holder without this problem. This also becomes another difficulty when trying to sell a boat without a mooring of course.
Think twice before agreeing to Joint ownership, Shared percentage is more easily agreed in the event of withdrawal from a problematic situation where the total value may be too high for you to purchase the remaining percentage value.

Good luck!

ianat182

 

[Channel Sailor]

Just to reiterate an important point. As I recall there is a significant difference between Joint ownership and Co Ownership. Something to do with what happens if one of the owner dies.

 

[Davegriff]

Just to reiterate an important point. As I recall there is a significant difference between Joint ownership and Co Ownership. Something to do with what happens if one of the owner dies.

Think you'll find in Joint ownership, you both own the whole thing, so in the event of death etc ownership reverts to the sole remaining owner. with Co owning, usually refered to as a partnership, each would own a specific portion of the boat, so upon death becomes part of their estate, and could be left to whomever they please. Same with houses, and why miost married couples opt for joint ownership. (saves on death dues)

 

[Tranona]

Just to reiterate an important point. As I recall there is a significant difference between Joint ownership and Co Ownership. Something to do with what happens if one of the owner dies.

This is well covered in the RYA guidance on shared ownership More than one way of having multiple owners, although joint and co are the most common. the latter is usually preferable in most cases of private sharing where the owners are not related, but may also be appropriate with related owners (eg husband and wife), for example for tax purposes or if one owner wants to bequeath their share to someone other than the current co owner.

Easiest to have co ownership with a registered boat, but it can be achieved equally well with a partnership agreement, for which there is a template on the RYA site.