Boat Safety Scheme - views

[Steve Clayton]

We currently have a couple of threads re BSS where, and I quote, the views on BSS by 2 forumites are:

boys down at Watford have now moved the goalposts yet again..

the tap dancing that is going on down in the BSS office at Watford...

When the headless chickens who keep changing the goalposts finally agree what the BSS is...

Now it was like this 7-8 years ago when the BSS came in. It's reasonable to expect a period of flux before things start to stabilse but I think it's going on too long; maybe a lot of politics being played???

BSSOffice care to respond???

 

[golf]

What have they changed now ? 2 days ago I down loaded all relevant info for my boat as regards bss, 112 pages in all, didnt bother with 3 other chapters as not relevant . Just bought my boat round from southampton up the river severn so now i will need Bss . Funny i didnt need to prove Squat Diddly when I was on the Sea?

 

[trev]

Like most leisure boating regulations the BSS is a solution looking for a problem - while relieving the boat owner of another fair wedge - and we all roll over and pay up.
We need a stronger voice than the RYA !

 

[Guest]

Diddly squat on the oggin ...

This is the gist of the threads .... one side advocating Professional fitters and occasionally using Inland waterways rules / scare-mongering .... other side saying on open waters - it is not required and can be self-actioned / fitted etc.

IF the powers that be got their act together and sorted it all out 0- then no-one would have a real argument - but all the time you have Trade Associations, half-arsed training / requiremenst and changing goal-posts .... what do you expect !!

 

[supermalc]

Rehow about common sense.

Why not one rule for boats in UK waters, be it tidal, or inland rivers or lakes.

For myself, I am frightened of stupidity/lack of common sense. Occasionally my own, but usually others.

For instance Last year I saw a small, scruffy boat with several snotty kids moor up. On the back seat which was covered with a duvet was a double burner gas ring connected to a bottle (somewhere). Maybe they did move it before lighting but .......

Also I was invited onto a boat for a cuppa. It had 2 petrol engines. I know one had carburettor faults. He talked of fitting a bilge blower, and it stunk of petrol. I admit I was shaking when she lit the gas.

These are true, and on boats which had recently been issued with a BW safety certificate. I am NOT saying the examiner didn't do his job properly. I am saying things can quickly change. When I moor somewhere other than my permanent mooring, I like to think the boat moored next to me is not about to blow up, or catch fire. And I'm not bothered if the water is salty, or not.

 

[the_wanderer]

Anybody who has been following my posts on this subject may realise that I am cynical on the subject of "MOT" tests for boats. Personally, I bought my boat as basically a shell and fitted it out, some may laugh it's a little Dejon 14 now about thirty years old. I have owned her for twenty five of them. I fitted all the requirements as specified by the Thames standards as would any other sensible owner with lighting, gas and petrol lockers. I have been "jumped" by inspectors before these rules were now controlled by committees etc. And she had a clean bill of health. I and most other boaters do not need some erk from a boatyard to charge us a fortune for a bit of paper to tell us our boats are safe. I think the old way was better where the examiners could jump the boat at any lock and check it.


Regards.


Alan

 

[Joe]

The boat safety scheme is a mess and it has been so, Since the start.
It was a good idea that was badly set up and managed.
It is open to individual inspectors own ideas of what the rules say.
And the rules have been constantly changed.
Boatyards were deliberately excluded from the scheme and an open invitation was put out to anyone that could afford the couple of grand to sit the exam.
This included people who may have never even been on a boat, Creating a whole load of self important little Hitler's.
Cert's can be picked up in pub's for £20-£100!!
No one has ever been struck off the inspectors list as far as i know despite loads of documented evidence that the rules have not been stuck to.
I could go on, But is just to much of an anoyance.
As i said a mess
Joe

 

[Guest]

No-one has said that they object to good sense ...

The problem is - do you agree to applying what is suspect legislation across the board ... or do you object until sensible and reliable legislation applied and carried out in good and fitting order.

That is the problem. Gas Installation is a prime example as part of Inland Waterways Regs .... Too many times have Corgi come into disrepute that it begs to question if you wsih to trust the scheme. Would you like to have such a questionable scheme applied to ALL boats ?? I certainly wouldn't - not after a plumber KNEW that the Corgi fitter had botched fitting my new boiler etc. in house. The argument that ensued between them to fix my boiler was heated (forgive the pun on such a serious note) ...

I would be first in line to agree with sensible reliable regs ... and fitters etc. But not with present hotch botch.

I find it interesting that people are quick to write ..... "a boat next to me" "blow-up" "safety etc." How many times have you known or even considered IN TRUTH the circumstance of any boat next to you ... let's be honest apart from foul-ups in tieing up, general observable yachting antics - I doubt if any have really thought about galley / other arrangements and whether safe on next boat - without a trigger for that thought.

C'mon lets be honest ....

 

[Mudplugger]

Re: No-one has said that they object to good sense ...

Nigel,as always,erudite and to the point, however I would take issue on whether we take note of those in close proximity!.I suspect that all of us make assumptions that, either other owners are 1) technically capable of maintaining respective pride & joy's. 2) have sufficient funding in place to afford to pay for the priviledge. Having spent the past 40 years mucking about on the wet stuff in a variety of craft, from 16' onwards, it was alway's hammered into me that self-sufficiency was the name of the game! Their is no A.A./RAC when you are offshore! ergo in the early day's a lot of very competent people would not fit VHF radios....so as not to rely on others to get them out of a self induced mess...Somewhere along the line this basic principle has been ignored, and the pendulum has swung the other way, now if you are in the poo! its some body elses fault!, Ive got my certificate to prove it!.. When did the sea become non-threatening:?.......???? Rant over! but if one is going to play, shouldnt you know the rules of the game? and assume others are going to as well?

 

[Sammo]

Re: No-one has said that they object to good sense ...

Nigel, you have enough talk for 2 sets of teeth.

The fact is if you are going to be murdered by your gas installation the chances are you won`t be blown sky high, describing a flaming arch in the sky before your charred remains fall back into the sea.
Oh no, you will be poisoned while you sleep by carbon monoxide gas, generated by your correctly installed gas appliance that was fitted in a compartment that had inadequate ventilation.

I think most agree the BSS is the right way to go, but they need to get their act together.
...............

 

[Guest]

At least we agree on something .....

Gnash Gnash .... that's the 2 sets of teeth working away !!

<<I think most agree the BSS is the right way to go, but they need to get their act together.>>

Blimey Unclealbert - we actually might have agreed on something.

Also let me say this plain and simple - I do not decry the idea and reason for Corgi or other professional standards ... I used to be a manager for BSI of all people ..... but BSI along with other experiences showed me the folly of such tight reins...... as many legisaltions / rules are ill advised or thought out with regard to implementation.

When Corgi or any other formal body etc. tightens its grip and gets rid of the chaff - so that we can TRUST the certificate as completed on sound work - Then UA - we will be in complete harmony.

No-one is knocking you personally - just some of the useless compatriots who would create just the scenarios that you say I would .... My boat was fitted out over 30 years ago ... it has had repairs and service at intervals by me .... I have faith in my work ... it has been my "pad" for reasonable periods with no problems ....

So please cut out the dramatics ....

 

[Sammo]

Re: At least we agree on something .....

Let me if I may point you towards a page on my company website,

I hope you will read into it that some of us DO take gas safety seriously, admitted we are registered to do only industrial but perhaps a read through will stop you pouring so much contempt on your friendly neighborhood gas fitter.

Click here

...........

 

[Guest]

UA - I think you missed the point ....

I applaud the page you highlight ... I am NOT against good fitters .... I am not against safe practices .....

I am against the sham fitters who have credentials for the work they are doing - but produce shoddy work.
I am against being forced to use such fitters.

How can you be sure that you will not receive such shoddy work - when often the fault may be hidden waiting to strike ....

 

[Sammo]

Re: UA - I think you missed the point ....

[ QUOTE ]
I am against the sham fitters who have credentials for the work they are doing - but produce shoddy work.
I am against being forced to use such fitters.


[/ QUOTE ]

But the machinery is there to remove these people from the register

Go to the Corgi website and you will find a complaints form.
Print it off
Fill it in
Send it to them.

Then sit back and watch the shitt fly

Corgi is a register. For a heating engineer to work on gas he has to be on that register.
And it`s much easier to get off it than it is to get on.

.......

 

[misterg]

Re: At least we agree on something .....

Hello again (gulp!)

I am in agreement with your general sentiments, and don't wish to contradict your undoubted knowlege and experience, but....

Either my knowlege is out of date, or your web-site is potentially misleading in the statements:

"All propane installations are now covered by the Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Act 1998 " and
" Installations in boats and caravans must be checked annually. "

There are situations where the second statement can be true, but AFAIK, the statements do not apply universally outside domestic / commercial use of boats (& maybe caravans).

I'm also under the impression that it isn't mandatory to use CORGI registered workers for comercial gas installations (non domestic), either, but would welcome a pointer to any requirements to the contrary.

I agree the job needs to be done 'right', and the ventilation / proximity to combustible structures is at least as much of a challenge as joining the pipes, so why does one have to dig so hard for this information? Make it freely available, so that people (Joe Public) is left in no doubt as to what constitutes a 'proper job'. (BSS goes some way). The law has gone the way of saying "trust CORGI", and while you seem to have served your time in commercial and industrial gas installations with undoubted high standards, other CORGI workers have not, and are unable to match the standard of workmanship that I can achieve myself, and would expect those professionally engaged to match. Ergo, I can't acccept that CORGI = unquestionable competence.

BSS was good in theory, and I think the guidance is useful (but I don't need a certificate). It seems to have got focussed so much on details that the general common sense and overall approach is lost, though.

 

[Guest]

OK - so its posible to remove them ...

Too bloody late when the house goes up .....

Great - BUT how did he / they get on the register in the first place ......

Now the work was corrected to a good standard by the same people on my house ... so that shows he CAN do the work - so why the sub-standard first time round ....

We are talking about a job / system that does not allow for errors .... therefore professional fitter should do it right first time, every time. Of course a system of complaint etc. should be in place - but should only be needed rarely .... judging by some of the posts on these forums of experience - the complaints procedure needs to be used more !!

I know UA that you are looking after your profession - I don't blame you as you most likely are good at the job, conscientious etc. ..... so no beef with you - but with the system that allows shoddy's to be there in the first place.

 

[Sammo]

Re: At least we agree on something .....

The current legislation controlling the installation and use of gas is the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 which came into force on 31 October 1998 and place duties mainly on installers, landlords and gas users.(you).
These Regulations aim to prevent injury to consumers and the public from either carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning or fire and explosion.
The boats and caravans refered to are ones that come under the umbrella of the heath and safety ie; hire companies, ect. And as I said the page is directed at industrial customers.
Your other question is easy to answer as ALL gas installations carried out in industrial premises have to be done by a CORGI registered fitter and that`s it end of story,
In the case of domestic installations they have taken it a stage further and now on conpletion of a domestic installation a certificate has to be issued and this will need to be produced to the new owner when you sell your house. Your heating engineer can get this certificate two ways he can apply to Gorgi who for a fee will issue it direct to the customer or he can apply to the local council who will send out an inspector, and if everyting is OK they will issue a certificate direct to the customer, (the cost of the latter, about £300.)
As Nigel has mentioned we do have amongst us a small continjent that graduated from the Frank Spencer school of gas fitting

See here

As I see it ,that chap is no different to a boat owner who buys a gas water heater cheap at a boat jumble screws it to the galley bulkhead, then takes a tee off his gas cooker. Never thinking that the unit was only in the boat jumble in the first place as it didn’t conform to current regulations.
Whats the law.

See here

As for boats in general. There are some, (usually with an axe to grind) that will point you towards loopholes that enable you to carry out diy on gas, but when you are standing on the pontoon with a loss adjuster, stareing at your pride and joy burnt to the waterline and he askes “who did the gas installation” you watch his eyes light up when you say “I did”.

Scaremongering?? Perhaps.

But remember, like all forms of energy, gas is a good servant, and a bad master.

……….

 

[misterg]

Re: At least we agree on something .....

[ QUOTE ]
The current legislation controlling the installation and use of gas is the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998
...
Your other question is easy to answer as ALL gas installations carried out in industrial premises have to be done by a CORGI registered fitter and that`s it end of story.
...
Whats the law.

See here



[/ QUOTE ]

No, the law is
here"]http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1998/98245102.htm#2]here[/url][/url] and in the accompanying ACOP (L56) (and in a lot of earlier, related legislation) - Sorry, but I've recently been looking into this for work!!

I think we're reaching the limit of constructive discussion here, and may have to agree to differ. Only those working as, or employed as gas installers must be "in membership of a 'class of persons' approved by the HSE" - i.e. CORGI registered. (ACOP guidance note 43/44)

Guidance note 45 (direct quote, including emphasis):

"Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must be competent to do so, <u>whether or not</u> they are required to be a member of an approved class of persons. Therefore, do-it-yourself installers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required competence. The level and range of competence should match the full extent of work done, but needs only to be sufficient for and relevant to that work." (continues for 4 more lines)

In addition, the regulations completely exclude private leisure craft and other stuff:


(5) Nothing in these Regulations shall apply in relation to the supply of gas to, or anything done in respect of a gas fitting on -

(a) a self-propelled vehicle except when such a vehicle is -

(i) hired out in the course of a business; or

(ii) made available to members of the public in the course of a business carried on from that vehicle;

(b) a sea-going ship;

(c) a vessel not requiring a national or international load line certificate except when such vessel is -

(i) hired out in the course of a business;

(ii) made available to members of the public in the course of a business carried out from that vessel; or

(iii) used primarily for domestic or residential purposes;

(d) a hovercraft; or

(e) a caravan used for touring otherwise than when hired out in the course of a business.

(6) Nothing in these Regulations shall apply in relation to -

(a) the supply of gas to the propulsion system of any vehicle or to any gas fitting forming part of such propulsion system;

(b) the supply of gas to, or anything done in respect of, a bunsen burner used in an educational establishment; or

(c) work in relation to a control device on a gas appliance if -

(i) the device is intended primarily for use by a consumer of gas; and

(ii) the work does not involve breaking into a gasway.



I'm not arguing on the grounds of safety, or advocating d-i-y, but as a backlash against the slight mis-information which repeatedly gets propagated on this subject and seems to originate from CORGI themselves.

[ QUOTE ]

But remember, like all forms of energy, gas is a good servant, and a bad master.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree there! - suggest we take it to PMs if the discussion continues.

 

[Sammo]

Re: At least we agree on something .....

Andy

This chap who’s going round doing industrial gas work for free.

Er. You couldn’t let me have his phone no. could you?

………

 

[Anonymous]

Re: At least we agree on something .....

One point here....I know many people who charge their boats to the company presumably for entertaining, or whatever. Others I know of claim to be doing some sort of business-related work. I guess that those people had better make sure that they have certificates, judging from the information you have posted?