Boat off mooring - salvage claimed

[MoodySabre]

A friend of mine (who sometimes posts here) had his mooring fail last week. This waws a genuine failure. The boat is a 23ftr value £6000.

The boat ended up on the mud bank very near his mooring. Somebody had found it there and towed to a nearby mooring that he owns and has padlocked it to his mooring and left a note on the washboards "Do not enter. This vessel has been legally claimed for salvage by XX telephone xxxxxxx"

When spoken to XX said "you will have to deal with my son - he wants a new mountain bike"

Coastguard says that he spoke to the Receiver of Wrecks who advised him that this was not a wreck and that salvage was not payable. It was Lost Property and should have been reported to the Police but some finders fee might be payable. The insurers says they will pay a fee and that the finder needs to lodge a claim with them.

My friend wants to resolve this quickly so he can use the boat with his grandchildren in the holidays and he doesn't want huge aggravation with another mooring holder so hopes to agree a small fee as a thank you for doing him a favour.

If it is Lost Property and not reported to the Police and has been padlocked then is this theft? What do you think he should do?

 

[LadyInBed]

I had exactly the same situation when I had a boat moored in Portland Harbour.
I told my ins co and they delt with it. Then next day ins co rang me to say I could move my boat.

 

[oldbilbo]

Last weekend a non-club boat on a S/P private mooring in the Tamar dragged the whole lot on the Spring Ebb and ended up bumping alongside another, much more expensive boat. Club members recovered it, securing it safely to the club pontoon where it could do no damage, nor have damage inflicted on it.

It's what we do, innit?

 

[Dockhead]

It's not very nice of him, but the cost of a mountain bike might be less than the hassle involved with dealing with him.

 

[lw395]

'cost of a mountain bike'
Seems to range from not much over £100 to (more than I pay for cars).

I would suspect I might offer a minor sum of cash, with an alternative of 'you'll have to deal with my insurers'.
How much to offer is a bit of a question.
You could look at it that a few hundred quid of mooring maintenance has either been neglected or done wrong.
£100 might seem generous if it was 10 minutes work to secure the boat, or it might seem mean if the chap risked life and limb in a gale or crocodile infested waters....

The boat owner has f@@ked up bigtime and if he gets away with one trip to the cashpoint he's lucky.
There but for the grace etc etc.
The fact that many other boat owners would have helped for free might be irrelevant?

 

[jac]

I would have a look at your insurance docs and find out what your excess is. Assuming it's £100 I personally would not offer more than about £75. Maybe £100 if the Excess was £250 or more and then say that he will have to deal with the insurance company.

Hopefully the guy will take the money.

If not then I would suggest passing to insurance company ASAP and explain the situation. give him a few days in which time the company will hopefully have contacted him and sorted out.
If it gets to the stage that usage will be impacted then contact the "salvager" and explain politely that you're not paying as it doesn't meet the requirements for salvage, that it is with your insurance company but that as it is not salvage he should have reported to the police as lost property, He has no right to keep it as permanently depriving the owner is theft.

If he still refuses to return then call in the police as theft - say you know who has the property and where it is and ask them to help.

I certainly wouldn't damage his padlock / chain as that would be criminal damage but I think most people when they realise they are in the wrong legally will not push it. If they do - let the police deal with it.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

If they do - let the police deal with it.

I suspect that the police will file and forget as too difficult to get involved with and not part of their targets and go and harass some motorists instead.

 

[prv]

A salvage claim for making safe an unattended boat is fundamentally a legitimate thing, even if many of us would kindly waive our right to do so. But the size of the claim has to be reasonable based on the work involved, the level of risk to the salvor, and the size of the likely loss if he hadn't acted. If the salvor and the owner can't agree on a price, in theory an Admiralty court will decide for them, based on these same factors (whether the full process of an Admiralty court is suitable or proportionate for a 23 footer on the mud is debateable, of course). A normal insurance policy will include cover for salvage costs, so the owner shouldn't be out of pocket except for any excess.

I think I'd be inclined to ask for the actual size of the demand rather than the vague "a mountain bike". If relatively small, I'd pay it with good grace and be glad the boat hadn't drifted onto a rock instead of a mudbank. If higher, I'd hand the case over to my insurance company who will either pay up or try to convince the salvor that his demand is unreasonable and negotiate something more appropriate.

I think a lot of people have read the bit about salvage costing someone his boat in We Didn't Mean to to go Sea, and think that a salvage claim always means megabucks, whether as the salvor rubbing their hands in anticipation or the owner worried he'll have to fight a huge bill. In fact it's usually a lot more mundane than that, a reasonable fee for reasonable services rendered, and covered by insurance companies who are glad to pay it instead of compensating a total loss.

Pete

 

[jac]

I suspect that the police will file and forget as too difficult to get involved with and not part of their targets and go and harass some motorists instead.

Don't know. It's theft according to the theft act 1968 which i'm fairly certain is a target for most police forces and you have handed it to them on a plate. Here is the crime, here is the note from the criminal here is the stolen property. Should be open and shut conviction which is always good for the targets.

 

[jac]

A salvage claim for making safe an unattended boat is fundamentally a legitimate thing, even if many of us would kindly waive our right to do so. But the size of the claim has to be reasonable based on the work involved, the level of risk to the salvor, and the size of the likely loss if he hadn't acted. If the salvor and the owner can't agree on a price, in theory an Admiralty court will decide for them, based on these same factors (whether the full process of an Admiralty court is suitable or proportionate for a 23 footer on the mud is debateable, of course). A normal insurance policy will include cover for salvage costs, so the owner shouldn't be out of pocket except for any excess.

I think I'd be inclined to ask for the actual size of the demand rather than the vague "a mountain bike". If relatively small, I'd pay it with good grace and be glad the boat hadn't drifted onto a rock instead of a mudbank. If higher, I'd hand the case over to my insurance company who will either pay up or try to convince the salvor that his demand is unreasonable and negotiate something more appropriate.

I think a lot of people have read the bit about salvage costing someone his boat in We Didn't Mean to to go Sea, and think that a salvage claim always means megabucks, whether as the salvor rubbing their hands in anticipation or the owner worried he'll have to fight a huge bill. In fact it's usually a lot more mundane than that, a reasonable fee for reasonable services rendered, and covered by insurance companies who are glad to pay it instead of compensating a total loss.

Pete

True but earlier in the thread it said it didn't count as salvage.

 

[MagicalArmchair]

Gads, this sort of post is a depressing. Why can't folk do a good deed for the sake of it (and I know a lot of people do). When I first purchased Triola (blimy, some ten years ago) and sailed her back from the Solent to the Medway, in a tired haze I looped one hefty line and a smaller backup line through the mooring bouy at MYC and went home to bed (yes, yes, I know, "he who makes no mistakes" as Roosevelt said... ).

A week later, the wind blew up, the rope chafed through and off Triola ventured. The world renown Bosun Steve of MYC saw the boat break free, ran down the club pontoon as Triola majestically sailed by avoiding all other boats, leapt on board like a hero of old and secured her. I must admit, I did buy him rather a lot of beer, but through sheer gratitude and embarrassment, not through any demand. (You wanted to see the mooring solution I put in place after that, you could have hung the Nimitz off it)

 

[paulwornell]

Interestingly the Government web site states that "If a boat comes off its moorings, it isn’t generally classified as a wreck for the purposes of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, as it hasn’t been abandoned without hope of recovery". However, reading Section 255 of the act (definitions) I can't spot this in the text. I guess it has emerged via case law and precedent?? Anyone know the background??

 

[Strolls]

'cost of a mountain bike'
Seems to range from not much over £100

Considering how shitty the cheapest £100 mail-order mountain bikes are, one would be a most satisfying punishment for the finder!

Cyclists call these "bike shaped objects" and if you google the term you will find whole sites dedicated to their inadequacies and failings.

 

[pmagowan]

Use the free mooring provided by Mr Padlock and get yours repaired. Remove your boat when you need to with a pair of bolt cutters. If you feel kind leave a replacement padlock.

 

[MagicalArmchair]

Bolt crop the mooring bouy off whilst you are at it and hold that hostage? Send him a polaroid picture of it with thinly veiled threats of painting it bright pink unless he pays a ransom of a unicycle...?

 

[lw395]

Considering how shitty the cheapest £100 mail-order mountain bikes are, one would be a most satisfying punishment for the finder!

Cyclists call these "bike shaped objects" and if you google the term you will find whole sites dedicated to their inadequacies and failings.

Very true.
But my 'new to me' bike was not a whole lot more.

 

[pmagowan]

Definition of wreck

According to section 255 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, the definition of wreck includes “jetsam, flotsam, lagan and derelict found in or on the shores of the sea or any tidal water”.

Jetsam, flotsam, lagan and derelict

Jetsam describes goods cast overboard to lighten a vessel in danger of sinking. The vessel may still perish.

Flotsam describes goods lost from a ship which has sunk or otherwise perished. Goods are recoverable because they remain afloat.

Lagan describes goods cast overboard from a ship which afterwards perishes. The goods are buoyed so they can be recovered.

Derelict describes property, whether vessel or cargo, which has been abandoned and deserted at sea by those who were in charge of it without any hope of recovering it.

If a boat comes off its moorings, it isn’t generally classified as a wreck for the purposes of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, as it hasn’t been abandoned without hope of recovery.

Also, buoys such as data buoys and mooring buoys aren’t classed as wreck. However, buoys which form part of fishing equipment may be classed as wreck when adrift.

From https://www.gov.uk/wreck-and-salvage-law

Ergo not salvagable!

 

[prv]

Interestingly the Government web site states that "If a boat comes off its moorings, it isn’t generally classified as a wreck for the purposes of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, as it hasn’t been abandoned without hope of recovery".

It may not be a wreck, but that doesn't mean it cannot be salvaged. A drifting tanker accepting a tow line from a salvage tug hasn't been "abandoned without hope of recovery" either.

Presumably this definition is why the Receiver of Wreck wasn't interested, but I'm not convinced about the further conclusion that it's therefore "lost property".

Pete

 

[prv]

Ergo not salvagable!

Why not?

Pete

 

[lw395]

I would have thought salvage generally included the act of preventing a ship becoming a wreck.