Boat in build pics (Squadron 78)

[coliholic]

Fabulous jfm, absolutely fab. Maybe you should take up boat design?

Fly dash is certainly well thought out, but just a silly Q, where's the keys go? Surely they haven't forgotten them?

And re the steps, since I'm best part of 20 stone, would you like me to pop in to Oundle and test 'em for you? No don't thank me it's no trouble and not putting me out too much and I won't even charge you for the petrol.

The only thing that worries me though is how are you going to improve on this for your next boat? What are we looking at do you reckon, two years?

 

[jfm]

Fabulous jfm, absolutely fab. Maybe you should take up boat design?

Fly dash is certainly well thought out, but just a silly Q, where's the keys go? Surely they haven't forgotten them?

And re the steps, since I'm best part of 20 stone, would you like me to pop in to Oundle and test 'em for you? No don't thank me it's no trouble and not putting me out too much and I won't even charge you for the petrol.

The only thing that worries me though is how are you going to improve on this for your next boat? What are we looking at do you reckon, two years?

Hi Colin. Nah, I'm too much of a tinkerer to do boat design for a living. but it's fun to do it as a hobby. The keys go in the lower dash - engines start stop on the fly dash is done with the red/green buttons. Thanks for the 20-stone man test, very kind. I'll arrange. If not before, then at LIBS

Next boat, sheesh. It's hard to swap boats at this size unless you're very cash rich, which I'm not. It's too big to trade in as dealer balance sheets don't stretch to a say £1.5m trade in. So I'd have to sell it. Then the question is, do you sell it THEN order new boat (1 year of no boating?) or do you order new boat THEN sell just before delivery (= risk of owning two boats, erk). That's a dilemma that doesn't apply in 65 footer land where you can trade in but it suddenly appears at this size, and frankly is a good reason to keep a boat this size many years (unless you're drowning in money). Anyhow, after all the planning and customising that's gone into this one I'd like to keep it a few years

All that said, I have the only berth on mole sud that is 6.4m wide. all the others are 6.0. That means I can fit an 85 footer on there eg the new Squadron 85 (or whatever they choose to call it) which is 6.2m beam approx including fenders, and is a totally gorgeous boat (I've been on the full size plywood mockup). It'll take me a couple of years to save up anyhow

 

[jfm]

Anyway, the only reason I can see for a repeated control upstairs is to set them centered while maneuvering.

Mapis they automatically centre and lock as soon as the GPS/heading sensor system senses that the boat is moving astern. So I reckon that if I have them on at sea, come into the port, and reverse into the berth, I will have no need to turn them off till I am tied up. Does that sound right to you? - I am a stabs newbie

My general plan is to turn them on as I leave the berth and leave them on for the whole trip, even in quite good weahter. If there are no waves, the fins will hardly move. I don't see the logic of only turning them on in bad weather. They are powered by engine PTO (as well as 230v from the genset)so there is no need to have a genset running to power them

 

[MapisM]

those steps are lovely, so simple and clean. I would certainly put up with a tiny amount of flex to keep the un-cluttered look.

Not sure if you replied to my post incidentally, but just in case I wasn't clear: I also like the un-cluttered look, and the design I envisaged would have added just one vertical tube in TOTAL (i.e. 7 instead of 6), but connecting each step to 4 tubes instead of 2, and making them concur to the overall stiffness, instead of relying only on the banister.
It's much easier to draw it than explain it, can do if you're interested.

 

[MapisM]

Mapis, pics below.

Very interesting, thanks!
What does "riding light" mean? Looks like an anchor light by its placement.

 

[MapisM]

Anyway I wanted the two huge screens and frankly if the throttle box had to go in the heads to achieve that I would still have done it! Hope you can get to LIBS to sit/stand at the dash to try for yourself.

LOL, yeah, I don't disagree on the big screens, it's just that I'd have rather put the wheel than the sticks in the heads, if I had to choose.
Hence my suggestion of placing the throttle in front, where the smaller screens are located.
But this is of course an "each to their own" topic.
I hope to come and see her at LIBS, but not sure yet.

 

[jfm]

Not sure if you replied to my post incidentally, but just in case I wasn't clear: I also like the un-cluttered look, and the design I envisaged would have added just one vertical tube in TOTAL (i.e. 7 instead of 6), but connecting each step to 4 tubes instead of 2, and making them concur to the overall stiffness, instead of relying only on the banister.
It's much easier to draw it than explain it, can do if you're interested.

I understand what you mean Mapis and it's a good idea. It cures flexing in the fore-aft direction 90%, in the port/starboard direction due to bending of the vertical hangers 50%, and in the port/starboard direction due to torsion of the bannisters 0%, roughly speaking. I have not considered it further than that because it's too late and anyway the extent of the flexing in the current design is perfectly ok by me. It really is a tiny amount! I'm delighted with the stairs!

 

[jfm]

Very interesting, thanks!
What does "riding light" mean? Looks like an anchor light by its placement.

Riding light = anchor light. It's a very common term - here in UK at least.

I was on a (2007) Jeanneau recently and their switch said "mooring light". I don't think that's the correct term

 

[jfm]

LOL, yeah, I don't disagree on the big screens, it's just that I'd have rather put the wheel than the sticks in the heads, if I had to choose.
Hence my suggestion of placing the throttle in front, where the smaller screens are located.
But this is of course an "each to their own" topic.
I hope to come and see her at LIBS, but not sure yet.

Yes good point, put the wheel in the heads

I think you'll like the throttle position when you sit there. It's very convenient, like the stalks in your car. No need to stretch your arm far

I couldn't put the sticks on the lower panel where the smaller Garmins are located because the sticks and/or your knuckles would hit the upright panel at WOT. The depth of that flat panel where the smaller Garmins are is 143mm iirc. I could have made a landing for the throttle box by extending the GRP aft by ~50mm, to form a plateau for the throttle box, but didn't want to because it would have meant making two not one mould tools (at roughly £20k each). Reason is that there is a cut-and-shut joint between 2 GRP mouldings at the aft edge of the strip where the small Garmins are located, and to make a plateau for the throittle box I'd have needed to make a new tool for the bottom moulding as well as the top. So I chose to allter the top moulding shape in a way that meant it would still mate with the standard FL bottom moulding.

I had lots of constraints: Broom making the mould tool, FL making the moulding and assembling it, and FL worried (understandably) that my supplying them a new mould tool would delay the build. At the start they didn't even know I'd be able to do it. It's a bit odd when a customer says "Don't mould the dash with your mould tool. I'll supply you a professional quality mould tool in 6 weeks. Use my mould tool to mould the dash, and i promise it will fit your boat and that your assemblers wont have any problem building it into the boat. "Yeah right" they could have said. Anyway, I chose to modify just one mould tool not two for a whole load of pragmatic reasons

 

[MapisM]

Mapis they automatically centre and lock as soon as the GPS/heading sensor system senses that the boat is moving astern. So I reckon that if I have them on at sea, come into the port, and reverse into the berth, I will have no need to turn them off till I am tied up. Does that sound right to you?

Oops, sorry J, I missed this post when replying to the previous ones. But yes, it does sound perfectly correct.
I also arranged a sophisticated automatism for my stabs, instructing the fender monkey (=swmbo) to switch the stabs to "centered" whenever she goes down to prepare the fenders. It doesn't even need a satellite fixing, just a hug now and then...!
Also agreed re. your "general plan", that's exactly the way I've always used my stabs, too.

PS: which kind of heading sensor do you have, capable of sensing the direction? Or did you just mean the GPS?

 

[MapisM]

I had lots of constraints...

Yep, I perfectly see what you mean.
If I may drift a bit, could you ask those moulding experts a very rough estimate of the weight for a 3 x 5 metres GRP hard top?
It doesn't have to be strong enough to walk on it, just to take the radome and aerials. I'm reviewing with my yard the HT project which we already debated some months ago...

 

[jfm]

PS: which kind of heading sensor do you have, capable of sensing the direction? Or did you just mean the GPS?

I'm not sure, now that you mention it.

I mean, I don't know how the stabs know if the boat is going backwards. They could sense reverse gear from the engine j1939 networks but I don't think they do, and anyway when berthing you mainly glide backwards in neutral. I need to think abouyt this some more - there's probably a simple answer! Two GPS engines spaced a distnace apart on the boat? Nah. will ask someone

An audio sensor that listens for 3 blasts of the ship's horn?

 

[jfm]

Yep, I perfectly see what you mean.
If I may drift a bit, could you ask those moulding experts a very rough estimate of the weight for a 3 x 5 metres GRP hard top?
It doesn't have to be strong enough to walk on it, just to take the radome and aerials. I'm reviewing with my yard the HT project which we already debated some months ago...

I'll ask but they'll probably want more spec. FWIW a 4.3m x 1.4m (max) Laser hull, which has 2 layers (hull and deck both made with Airex sandwich core), weighs 59kg. So you are in the 120KG zone

 

[MapisM]

So you are in the 120KG zone

Send me the contract and I'll sign it. My man is estimating 400+ kgs!
And yes, he was thinking to make it cored - though I'm not sure about the material he has in mind.
He did say that the sandwich they normally use absorbs resin for 30% of its volume, though. Does that make sense?

 

[jfm]

Send me the contract and I'll sign it. My man is estimating 400+ kgs!
And yes, he was thinking to make it cored - though I'm not sure about the material he has in mind.
He did say that the sandwich they normally use absorbs resin for 30% of its volume, though. Does that make sense?

You might approach 400kg for the entire assembly but there's no way it will be 400kg just for the GRP panel (unless of course they make it too thick!)

Maybe they have different ideas about how strong/stiff it needs to be. If you put the s/s support frame up and bolted 2.5 Lasers to it, the HT would be strong enough. 150kg.

Core your HT with Dyvinycel or Airex type material. Thick, like 30mm. Get a decent compound curve right across the HT plus a turned down lip/rim around the edge. Get the makers not to add an extra 2 layers of GRP just for good measure and instead have confidence in making it thinner. And don't let them overlap the glass matt at joints or put extra glass strips around the edge or other things that might seem right but are engineeringly irrational. It SHOULD be like a yoghurt pot and flex; you want a 3mm layup not 8mm. If you do all that I would be confident the GRP component could be done at under 150kg

The 30% resin absorption just seems wrong. Have you ever held a piece of dry Airex? It is just a fairly rigid closed cell foam, totally non absorbant. Some resin is consumed into the slits (that allow it to be curved) and filing voids at the GRP/airex interface I suppose but 30% seems very high. The % must fall as the Airex gets thicker, becuase some of the resin weight is consumed at the Airex/GRP interface for sure

You could look at the US websites that make retrofit HTs and find out their weights, and extrapolate?

 

[Bajansailor]

This is an excellent thread with wonderful photos and descriptions of the boat coming together very nicely.
I love the lateral thinking involved with the stairway to the flying bridge - just because steps are usually shaped like, well, 'steps' doesn't mean that they have to be..... ace.
And the flying bridge console moulding and layout - I would be surprised if future 78 owners chose not to have one of the JFM specials instead of a standard Fairline.

Re a 3m x 5m fibreglass hard top for Mapis - a standard laminate of CSM/WR/CSM weighs approx 1 lb / sq ft, using 1.5 oz / sq ft Chopped Strand Mat and 24 oz / sq yd Woven Roving.
My calculations give a weight of approx 147 kg for 2 fibreglass skins as per above, excluding the foam core in between.
Although I think this could be reduced somewhat by using a single layer of stitchmat on each side, rather than the traditional CSM/WR/CSM combination.
This would still be massively strong, although it might complain a bit if somebody stood on the middle of a 3m wide unsupported span.....
(Drifting a bit, we put a cambered 18 SWG (1.2 mm) thick aluminium plate roof over the aft deck on the ally cat in my avatar, and a person can run across it quite safely, with maximum unsupported panel sizes of approx 1m x 0.5 m, although it is a bit disconcerting when the ally flexes under foot..... )

Apologies for the imperial units, but the fibreglass cloth we get here comes from the USA, and they are still very much into lbs, oz, ft and yds.

 

[MapisM]

Thanks jfm and bjs, your indications make a lot of sense.
I guess that their idea of how much resin and glass mat should go into that is just wrong: they're used to work also on commercial boats, and I suppose that whenever fishermen ask them to build any kind of GRP structure, they use a hammer to test it!
I'll have a word with them. Trouble is, I don't have many choices around here...

 

[scej]

you will need to turn the sabilisers off when in the marina as the fins continue to move and make mooring a right b*gger if you leave them on, also they need to be fixed when reversing

 

[coliholic]

He did say that the sandwich they normally use absorbs resin for 30% of its volume, though. Does that make sense?

I did quite a bit of FG work with a mate 7 or 8 years ago who at that time happened to work for FL so all the materials were "purchased" from FL. Maybe I shouldn't say that eh? Anyway we used Coremat to stiffen the structure and it does indeed absorb a good 30% resin - just sucks it up and keeps on sucking, amazing at how much it absorbs. Coremat itself was IIRC only 2 or 3 mm think but it makes a thin structure very rigid but also very heavy.

Obviously technology has moved on in the intervening years and I'm sure there's lighter reinforcing materials avaiable but at the time I was unconcerned at weight, this was for making moulds so weight wasn't an issue but rigidity was.

West sysytems on the Isle of Wight gave a lot of useful advice as did these folk http://www.cybglassfibre.co.uk

 

[benjenbav]

I was wondering how hulls are released from the female moulds. Dry ice applied to the outside of the mould?