Boat in build pics (Squadron 78)

[jfm]

Great boat JFM but when do we get to hear about the above and below water lighting and latest OB feature developments.

You're relentless W'up! The UWL's go in on Tuesday (Gareth is coming to the factory), 6x of their thru-hulls, the x120s. I'll have to write you an OB feature later but rest assured it'll include RGB lighting in the saloon, Lumishores on the RIB tender (dunno about the laser?), acres of sunbrella sunbeds, B+O hifi in saloon, aft deck and flybridge all from a hard disc server thing with beosound 5 user interface, and a bath

 

[wakeup]

Cool!

What tender are you going for this time, something fitted with a 50 yam but on what? A WalkerBay again?

 

[benjenbav]

Lumishores on the RIB tender (dunno about the laser?),

Jfm, you know you owe it to yourself to have the ONLY Laser with u/w lights IN THE WORLD. I'm sure EME can p/shop some pix to show just how cool this would be. Only prob I foresee is sailing the thing though the piles of discarded lingerie that the girls throw at you.

 

[Hurricane]

Thanks Hurric. TBH, I find Sealand stuff modstly ok but a bit plasticky on occasions. I'm more familiar with it than I want to be, in the rubber gloves sense. I could have had Sealand Vacuflush heads on this boat but deliberately didn't and chose Tecmas. With the tank manager system there is a little control box actually on the black tank and another on the dash with the indicator lights. Which one failed?

I have redundancy with three tanks and three tank managers, anyway

I'm sure you know that Princess have their own little addition to the TankManager system in that they integrate the panel into the boat's DC panel. My fault was that one of the little lamps (LEDs) failed to operate. The fault turned out to be in the master control box but having a complete set of parts made it very easy to find and fix. I also had a failure of the bottom switch on the sender but I'm sure we've all been there!!!

Funny how conversations all end up about holding tanks!!

 

[Hurricane]

Cool!

What tender are you going for this time, something fitted with a 50 yam but on what? A WalkerBay again?

That would be just plain silly

Walker bay do make a really great bigger RIB though.
This one
http://walkerbay.com/products/generation/

A well known (to me anyway ) visitor to these forums has one at Sant Carles with a 60HP Yam and it goes really well.

 

[iangrant]

Source

I'd need NMEA2000 transducers on the hydraulic cylinders for that. Do you know of a source of those?

Just to be fair to Raymarine, everything you say works on their nmea2000 (STNG as they call it) system and displays too!

BennetT marine http://www.bennetttrimtabs.com/catalog.php?vID=197&cID=2

You only need the bits that stick on the trim tab end.

I had the wires already fitted at the back end and a Bennett lump plugged into the NMEA network, it displayed Lowrance Trim Tabs as connected on the NMEA device list. It worked but they wouldn't calibrate.

Wired in the Garmin GBT to the two wires coming from the tabs, a red and a green, plugged into the NMEA network and it asked straight away "calibrate trim tabs" on the GM10 display, Full up, then full down press OK and now displays both 1-100 - easy

On any display except the chart plotters you can configure it to pop up when you press the buttons.

Ian

 

[jfm]

That would be just plain silly

Walker bay do make a really great bigger RIB though.
This one
http://walkerbay.com/products/generation/

A well known (to me anyway ) visitor to these forums has one at Sant Carles with a 60HP Yam and it goes really well.

Yup, 100% agree. IMHO there is nothing to touch a W'Bay tender in this size range.

Down here in France everyone raves about Novranias. They're quite nice, but a bit utilitarian looking imho. And no UK dealers, so I'd have to buy n France and pay the mental prices down here, then ship it to UK. The Avon 400DL is very nice, and my 2nd choice if for any reason I can't get a W'Bay. But assuming I can get one and based on what I know now, I'll be getting the W'Bay. I think it's by far the best design in this size range and the build quality is excellent

Sizing is tricky and I wish W'Bay made a 4.10. But they only do 3.9 and 4.3. The 430 is a bit big (I can't use the full platform width becuase of the passerelle) though it would fit at a push. But the 390 is perfectly big enough I think, so I think is the better choice, with a Merc or Yam 50, but I'm pondering on it

 

[jfm]

BennetT marine http://www.bennetttrimtabs.com/catalog.php?vID=197&cID=2

Ian

Thanks Ian, good stuff. I didn't realise all that kit was available. I'll retrofit it when the boat is at Essex next spring, cos FL have already installed the tabs and this involves sort of a partial re-install. I have the NMEA2000 backbone taken right aft to the transom already (for a chart plotter in the crew cabin)

 

[scubaman]

Looks absolutely fantastic! Your pics and posts are very much appreciated.

A quick question regarding the third fuel tank if I may: what is the construction going to be like around the tank? I'm thinking of the possibility of odors as years go by. Also: the tank would be compartmentalized but is the any change of 'sloshing' sounds making their way into the cabin.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Another option you've got is simply to convert the output of analogue senders into NMEA 2000. In think there's one or two companies that provide black boxes to do this. Here's one http://mrmarine.com.au/nmea2000.htm. The multi-purpose interface would be the one in this case.

The nice thing about something like that is that you can really let yourself go mad and put things like load sensors on the lift platform mechanism or even strain gauges on the anchor windlass if you want. You can hook up any sensor that has an output within the specs of the A-D converter to your NMEA 2000 displays.

 

[jfm]

A quick question regarding the third fuel tank if I may: what is the construction going to be like around the tank? I'm thinking of the possibility of odors as years go by. Also: the tank would be compartmentalized but is the any change of 'sloshing' sounds making their way into the cabin.

The tank is mostly below the floor of the master cabin. The floor is part of the main internal GRP moulding, and this floor will have a big rectangle cut in it so that 300mm of fuel tank will stick up thru the floor. This will be boxed over in plywood I think, and the bed built on top of/around it

Odours are possible in principle and we have thought about them. Only solution is a good installation: good quality hoses, well made joints, etc. In my previous 2 sq58s the fuel tanks have been under the saloon floor with access hatches and I never had odours. So, touch wood, I reckon it'll be ok. This tank can be removed and serviced if needed, just by dismantling the plywood bed above it

The tank has baffles but there will hardly ever be sloshing noise because the normal mode of operation will be to leave all three tanks connected as one virtual tank, with both engines and gensets drawing from this centre tank. Hence, until I'm down to my last ~30% fuel, this tank will always be full 100%, hence no sloshing. I expect to spend so little time with fuel low enough for this tank to slosh that it just wont be a problem in practice. And even if this tank is not full, the bed construction + mattress over it will reduce the noise, and anyway the boat has to be moving (under power or rocking at anchor) for the fuel to slosh and then you have a load of other noise anyway. Also in a med boat there is always the background airflow noise of airco, etc.

As ever with boats there are compromises. The centre fuel tank location is perfect engineeringwise being low down and amidships, and even on a boat this size you don't have loads of choice about positioning a tank this big. So it kinda has to go there. with the (manageable) risk of sloshing/odours. Or not be on board, but I really do want the range it'll give me so it's a "must have" for me. Also the tank valves are all arranged to give the captain loads of options, including emptying this tank and just not using it at all

So it aint perfect, and contains some compromises, but is a good overall solution I reckon. With 1600+ gall / 7200+ litres of fuel I'll have fantastic range at displacement speed (well over 1000nm) and pretty good range at planing speed. I can do Antibes - Balearics and back without refuelling; with the fuel price differential between the two locations this tank pays for itself in a couple of trips!

The other aspect of this kind of customisation is it makes the boat easy to sell when the time comes. There are about 6 Sq78s now on the used market and they are basically the same spec. When I sell mine it will be the only one with fin stabilisers and long range fuel - I'd go for those benefits if I were the buyer. When I sold the last Sq58 it was the only one on the market with the light oak interior, out of 212 boats built and perhaps 25 Sq58s that are for sale at any one time. The very first people to see it signed and paid a deposit within about a week, at close to the chunky price you can see on EBY's website. So I reckon it's good if your boat stands out (in a positive way!) on the used market, else it takes ages to sell and you get price chipped.

 

[jfm]

Another option you've got is simply to convert the output of analogue senders into NMEA 2000. In think there's one or two companies that provide black boxes to do this. Here's one http://mrmarine.com.au/nmea2000.htm. The multi-purpose interface would be the one in this case.

The nice thing about something like that is that you can really let yourself go mad and put things like load sensors on the lift platform mechanism or even strain gauges on the anchor windlass if you want. You can hook up any sensor that has an output within the specs of the A-D converter to your NMEA 2000 displays.

Thanks GoG. This nmea2000 stuff seems to give all sorts of monitoring and automation opportunities. I'm already doing some of this. The whole nav system will be run on a nmea2000 backbone, and I have Maretron J2K100blackboxes to take the Cat engine data from the j1939 Cat network and translate it to nmea2000. For monitoring, I will use the Garmin screens and also I have a Maretron DSM250 colour display on the upper helm. I can expand all this easily

I do find there is a lack of info though on what this stuff will do. As one example, take the http://mrmarine.com.au/NMEA2000 Specs/Alba-Out8.pdf product from that website. To take a basic example, you could use this say to switch on an alarm if fuel falls <25%. But the info provided by manuafaturer doesn't say exactly how you'd configure it to do that. I mean how do you tell the black box to look on the nmea2000 netowrk for fuel level data (among all the other data) and then close say the second of its 8 switches when a <25% value is returned?

And as a second example, it's hard to find out what your dispays will support. Let's say you buy this http://mrmarine.com.au/NMEA2000 Specs/Alba-In.pdf and as one of the inputs you connect a microswitch to tell the Alba-In if the bathing platform is fully up or not. How do you know if you can configue the Garmin screen or Maretron DSM250 display to say "Bathing Platform down"? Or if you can have a single screen page that displays the output of all 8 microswitches that the Alba-In can handle, with user-definable labels for each switch (eg you could have a microswitch on every porthole, then you'd need to name them on the display screen)? The Garmin/Maretron manuals don't seem to mention fully user definable screens to display this kind of data. Maybe it can be done and I'll find out when the gear is installed and I've worked my way around the menus, but at the moment I find it disappointing that it is so hard to figure out what can and can't be done

So I'll see how it goes and if I can do all these things and have user definable pages on the display screens I'll expand the system

 

[Hurricane]

Thanks GoG. This nmea2000 stuff seems to give all sorts of monitoring and automation opportunities. I'm already doing some of this. The whole nav system will be run on a nmea2000 backbone, and I have Maretron J2K100blackboxes to take the Cat engine data from the j1939 Cat network and translate it to nmea2000. For monitoring, I will use the Garmin screens and also I have a Maretron DSM250 colour display on the upper helm. I can expand all this easily

I do find there is a lack of info though on what this stuff will do. As one example, take the http://mrmarine.com.au/NMEA2000 Specs/Alba-Out8.pdf product from that website. To take a basic example, you could use this say to switch on an alarm if fuel falls <25%. But the info provided by manuafaturer doesn't say exactly how you'd configure it to do that. I mean how do you tell the black box to look on the nmea2000 netowrk for fuel level data (among all the other data) and then close say the second of its 8 switches when a <25% value is returned?

And as a second example, it's hard to find out what your dispays will support. Let's say you buy this http://mrmarine.com.au/NMEA2000 Specs/Alba-In.pdf and as one of the inputs you connect a microswitch to tell the Alba-In if the bathing platform is fully up or not. How do you know if you can configue the Garmin screen or Maretron DSM250 display to say "Bathing Platform down"? Or if you can have a single screen page that displays the output of all 8 microswitches that the Alba-In can handle, with user-definable labels for each switch (eg you could have a microswitch on every porthole, then you'd need to name them on the display screen)? The Garmin/Maretron manuals don't seem to mention fully user definable screens to display this kind of data. Maybe it can be done and I'll find out when the gear is installed and I've worked my way around the menus, but at the moment I find it disappointing that it is so hard to figure out what can and can't be done

So I'll see how it goes and if I can do all these things and have user definable pages on the display screens I'll expand the system

I still recon that the best addition we installed was the PC feed throughout - especially to feed the nav systems.
And the PC doesnt need modern interfaces either - just lots of wiring to each display. The benefits all come later when you realise that the PC can those little extra things and if its integrated at the begining, its there when you need it.

 

[Dave_Snelson]

WOW! - That is a big boat. You don't say much about the completed boats capabilities or what you will do with her (sounds a blimmim obvious question) as I note the extended range fuel tank...some serious cruising planned?

Isn't it nice to see that boat building is still a) an art and b) a labour intensive process that the internet can't kill off.

You know we all want more pictures, so get 'em posted

Cheers
Dave

 

[MYAG]

Yup, 100% agree. IMHO there is nothing to touch a W'Bay tender in this size range.

Down here in France everyone raves about Novranias. They're quite nice, but a bit utilitarian looking imho. And no UK dealers, so I'd have to buy n France and pay the mental prices down here, then ship it to UK. The Avon 400DL is very nice, and my 2nd choice if for any reason I can't get a W'Bay. But assuming I can get one and based on what I know now, I'll be getting the W'Bay. I think it's by far the best design in this size range and the build quality is excellent

Sizing is tricky and I wish W'Bay made a 4.10. But they only do 3.9 and 4.3. The 430 is a bit big (I can't use the full platform width becuase of the passerelle) though it would fit at a push. But the 390 is perfectly big enough I think, so I think is the better choice, with a Merc or Yam 50, but I'm pondering on it

Congrats on the purchase, enjoy the build, I always think it is one of the best parts of boat ownership that stays with you long after the boat has been sold on.

Like you, I have been looking around for a rib around the 4-4.3m mark for my next ride which has just gone into build. After many months of looking and researching, I settled for the Novurania 430DL with a Yam 60. I agree they are a little utilitarian in places but no rib ticked all my boxes. As they have no UK dealer, I was able to order direct from the factory in Florida whilst on a visit there, they will ship directly to the boatyard just in time for the delivery early next year. Easy process and great discount too!

www.novurania.com

Keep the pics coming, very interesting.

 

[scubaman]

Only solution is a good installation: good quality hoses, well made joints, etc. In my previous 2 sq58s the fuel tanks have been under the saloon floor with access hatches and I never had odours. So, touch wood, I reckon it'll be ok.

As you said, with a good installation I'm sure it will be. Besides, should the hoses ever start to give out odour, it shouldn't be a big deal to have them replaced.

As ever with boats there are compromises. The centre fuel tank location is perfect engineeringwise being low down and amidships, and even on a boat this size you don't have loads of choice about positioning a tank this big. So it kinda has to go there. with the (manageable) risk of sloshing/odours. Or not be on board, but I really do want the range it'll give me so it's a "must have" for me. Also the tank valves are all arranged to give the captain loads of options, including emptying this tank and just not using it at all

So it aint perfect, and contains some compromises, but is a good overall solution I reckon. With 1600+ gall / 7200+ litres of fuel I'll have fantastic range at displacement speed (well over 1000nm) and pretty good range at planing speed. I can do Antibes - Balearics and back without refuelling; with the fuel price differential between the two locations this tank pays for itself in a couple of trips!

Pretty substantial benefits for this compromise for sure.

The other aspect of this kind of customisation is it makes the boat easy to sell when the time comes. There are about 6 Sq78s now on the used market and they are basically the same spec. When I sell mine it will be the only one with fin stabilisers and long range fuel - I'd go for those benefits if I were the buyer. When I sold the last Sq58 it was the only one on the market with the light oak interior, out of 212 boats built and perhaps 25 Sq58s that are for sale at any one time. The very first people to see it signed and paid a deposit within about a week, at close to the chunky price you can see on EBY's website. So I reckon it's good if your boat stands out (in a positive way!) on the used market, else it takes ages to sell and you get price chipped.

This boat will quite definitely stand out in many positive ways

 

[MapisM]

Whats wrong with the Bennett trim tabs?

Do you mean aside from feeling like you got them in a christmas cracker?
I actually agree with you (and jfm) that they're not much needed on such a ship, but if you just compare the Bennetts with the k-planes, on any boat where tabs really matter, then you will tell me what's wrong with them...!

 

[MapisM]

Ha, I KNEW when I posted that you would spot the spray rail/lift strip thing! On this first stabiliser boat, Fairline didn't know the exact fin positions so they moulded the lift strips in (with a few layers of glass mat) but then filled the V groove in the mould and laid up the main hull GRP striaght across, so bridging across the groove in the mould for the strip. Then they have cut the strip off on the outside to match the stab fins, and they will hand-repair the gelcoat. By doing so, the integrity of the hull is protected because the glass roving/matt is bridged straight across the strip groove. The stab fins will therefore be within a few mm of the hull, which is necessary as you know to avoid vortexes. They stab fins have winglets at the bottom to reduce vortexes

At the point of that photo, they had cut off some of the lift strip but they haven't finished and will cut more off, to match the 1500mm length of the fin. One nice coincidence is that the stab fin will be perfectly in line with the lift strip

On later builds I expect they will just fill the groove in the mould with a plugging piece, if future buyers order stabs

Yeah, I guessed you knew...
A few mm? Wow, that's impressive. In my boat, I can put a finger between the stabs and the hull.
You'd better remove the old a/f in that area, before putting the new one on!
That aside, this is indeed an interesting bit of naval architecture.
On first thought, I would have agreed that the alignment between the fin and the lift strip is a nice coincidence, but coming to think of it, I can't get my head around the feeling that it would be better to have the fin as far as possible from any strip. Or maybe as far as possible from the inner strip, but still staying reasonably far also from the outer strip (if that makes sense).
I'd be interested to hear the designers view, if you had the opportunity to discuss this matter.

 

[jfm]

Yeah, I guessed you knew...
A few mm? Wow, that's impressive. In my boat, I can put a finger between the stabs and the hull.
You'd better remove the old a/f in that area, before putting the new one on!
That aside, this is indeed an interesting bit of naval architecture.
On first thought, I would have agreed that the alignment between the fin and the lift strip is a nice coincidence, but coming to think of it, I can't get my head around the feeling that it would be better to have the fin as far as possible from any strip. Or maybe as far as possible from the inner strip, but still staying reasonably far also from the outer strip (if that makes sense).
I'd be interested to hear the designers view, if you had the opportunity to discuss this matter.

Don't quote me on the "few mm". I don't know what the final dimension will be!

Yup, in truth the best answer for the stab fins is to have no lift strip anywhere near. But that couldn't happen in this case - the boat wasn't designed for fins. So all I meant was it seems a nice coincidence (rigidity-wise and aesthetically I suppose) to have the strip perfectly in line, rather than say 50mm to one side

I don't think the lift strip matters when using the stabs at zero speed. When underway the strip will interfere with the water flow over to top 50mm or the stab, but that's tought luck I guess. The stabs are 750mm deep

 

[jfm]

Do you mean aside from feeling like you got them in a christmas cracker?
I actually agree with you (and jfm) that they're not much needed on such a ship, but if you just compare the Bennetts with the k-planes, on any boat where tabs really matter, then you will tell me what's wrong with them...!

Oh yeah for sure on your Fountain and faster boats the tabs are a whole different concept. You drive the boat with them! On any of my boats they are at best a slightly nice to have accessory. If they broke in May I'd wait till the following April lift even to think about repairing them!

Seriously though, the christmas cracker stabs may look like children's toys but they are actually very well made and reliable!