Boat Brokers the Good The Bad and The Ugly

[thesaintlyone]

What are your expectancies of a boat broker, what would you like/expect from a boat broker what are your bad experiences or good experiences time to rant or praise. Im considering expanding from an original plan and want to know what makes a good and bad broker. Ps I'm not one ?

 

[prv]

Buying, or selling?

Pete

 

[GB1307]

Hello The Saintly One,
I recently used Boatshed Suffolk and did so to afford me some support, advice or protection, as i live abroad and was buying the boat for my son's 21st Birthday.
So it was advertised as mechanically sound, well maintained and serviced. I got confirmation from Phil at Boatshed Suffolk that this was indeed the case, and went ahead with the purchase. It did say that it needed cosmetic work, what was fine, as long as the expensive stuff was in good order.
The previous owner failed to turn up twice for the handover and then sent the keys to my son, who went over to collect it. However the cunning previous owner did not send the keys to start then engines, until after Boatshed transferred the boat into our name.
Some time after this, Boatshed got it towed to a marina and the guy that towed it their, just dumped it outside the marina with the keys in it.
It was only at this point that i spoke to Mailk Marine, who did a review of it that i found out one of the engines is broken, the drive is broken, it needs new injectors, the engine mounts are broken, it has diesel leaks and broken wiring. This is not the end of the list, but more like the start.
I went back to Boatshed and Phil immediately went legal and refused to speak to us anymore.
So its now with both lawyers and the trading standards office, as to say the boat is not as advertised is a significant understatement.
Feeling less than impressed by Boatshed.

 

[Tranona]

See my reply to your other post. as you have probably been told by your lawyer this transaction is probably not covered by consumer law unless Boatshed actually owned the boat. If they sold it on behalf of a client who did own it then they are acting as a broker and it is your responsibility to check the boat before you pay. Have difficulty with your comment about transferring ownership. They cannot do this without your agreement as you have to sign the Bill of Sale.

Suggest you read the contract you signed so that you are clear about who is responsible for what and what conditions need to be met to complete the contract.

 

[sailorman]

Hello The Saintly One,
I recently used Boatshed Suffolk and did so to afford me some support, advice or protection, as i live abroad and was buying the boat for my son's 21st Birthday.
So it was advertised as mechanically sound, well maintained and serviced. I got confirmation from Phil at Boatshed Suffolk that this was indeed the case, and went ahead with the purchase. It did say that it needed cosmetic work, what was fine, as long as the expensive stuff was in good order.
The previous owner failed to turn up twice for the handover and then sent the keys to my son, who went over to collect it. However the cunning previous owner did not send the keys to start then engines, until after Boatshed transferred the boat into our name.
Some time after this, Boatshed got it towed to a marina and the guy that towed it their, just dumped it outside the marina with the keys in it.
It was only at this point that i spoke to Mailk Marine, who did a review of it that i found out one of the engines is broken, the drive is broken, it needs new injectors, the engine mounts are broken, it has diesel leaks and broken wiring. This is not the end of the list, but more like the start.
I went back to Boatshed and Phil immediately went legal and refused to speak to us anymore.
So its now with both lawyers and the trading standards office, as to say the boat is not as advertised is a significant understatement.
Feeling less than impressed by Boatshed.

In this case a pre purchase survey would have more than paid for its self.

 

[Biggles Wader]

Hello The Saintly One,
I recently used Boatshed Suffolk and did so to afford me some support, advice or protection, as i live abroad and was buying the boat for my son's 21st Birthday.
So it was advertised as mechanically sound, well maintained and serviced. I got confirmation from Phil at Boatshed Suffolk that this was indeed the case, and went ahead with the purchase. It did say that it needed cosmetic work, what was fine, as long as the expensive stuff was in good order.
The previous owner failed to turn up twice for the handover and then sent the keys to my son, who went over to collect it. However the cunning previous owner did not send the keys to start then engines, until after Boatshed transferred the boat into our name.
Some time after this, Boatshed got it towed to a marina and the guy that towed it their, just dumped it outside the marina with the keys in it.
It was only at this point that i spoke to Mailk Marine, who did a review of it that i found out one of the engines is broken, the drive is broken, it needs new injectors, the engine mounts are broken, it has diesel leaks and broken wiring. This is not the end of the list, but more like the start.
I went back to Boatshed and Phil immediately went legal and refused to speak to us anymore.
So its now with both lawyers and the trading standards office, as to say the boat is not as advertised is a significant understatement.
Feeling less than impressed by Boatshed.

Did you have a survey before you handed over the money?

 

[GB1307]

Unfortunately i did not and everything that i was told turned out to not be true.
However the truth will always out and in this day and age of social media, people that cause other people such situations will inevitably lose out themselves.
Yes, i should have had a survey and yes, i should have flown over from Moscow to deal with this face to face.
However i did not and trusted people too much, now i am suffering the consequences. Moreover, it was my son's 21st Birthday present and it is he, that is suffering more than anyone.
If we had the chance to start the boat, at the time of the purchase, then we would have had more recourse, however as the owner failed to turn up to two handovers for river test, then did not send the engine keys for another six weeks, we did not find out the truth until two months after the transfer of ownership.
I mistakenly believed that using a broker afforded some protection, however, it seems that everyone on this site knows this is not the case and its an unspoken truth in the boating world.
Yes, i have learned a very bitter lesson, however i do not want other people to fall into the same trap that i did, so will do something about it, and am considering options to make buyers aware of this.

 

[Graham376]

Brokers vary a lot. I have only sold one boat through a broker and he was plain lazy and always too busy to show potential buyers around so I had to. I've bought through 3 brokers, 2 were excellent and one was an outright liar whose response to complaints about work not carried out as a condition of purchase was "sue me". Another broker had a boat advertised as "in excellent condition" but when we had a survey done and it needed at least £10k of work.

 

[James W]

Boatshed Suffolk currently advertise a Hustler 35 as being “Built to British Navel standards”! I think there’s tumthing wrong there......?

 

[Baddox]

Boatshed Suffolk currently advertise a Hustler 35 as being “Built to British Navel standards”! I think there’s tumthing wrong there......��

Maybe it has a hole in it.

 

[Tomaret]

I bought my current boat through Red Ensign in Falmouth. Whilst at all times they were working for the sellers not me, they couldn’t have done more to complete the deal. They communicated with the sellers based overseas promptly to get a response to my offer and then answers to my questions and post survey arranged work to be done for the account of the seller. I also used my surveyor to liaise with them, the contractors doing the work and to check on the work done and provide a supplementary report as I was 240 miles away.

I’m not sure I’d expect more of them, but it is critical that buyers understand that the broker is in the pay of the seller and works for them. However friendly they are they are not in a position to put the buyer’s interest first.

 

[superheat6k]

Hello The Saintly One,
I recently used Boatshed Suffolk and did so to afford me some support, advice or protection, as i live abroad and was buying the boat for my son's 21st Birthday.
So it was advertised as mechanically sound, well maintained and serviced. I got confirmation from Phil at Boatshed Suffolk that this was indeed the case, and went ahead with the purchase. It did say that it needed cosmetic work, what was fine, as long as the expensive stuff was in good order.
The previous owner failed to turn up twice for the handover and then sent the keys to my son, who went over to collect it. However the cunning previous owner did not send the keys to start then engines, until after Boatshed transferred the boat into our name.
Some time after this, Boatshed got it towed to a marina and the guy that towed it their, just dumped it outside the marina with the keys in it.
It was only at this point that i spoke to Mailk Marine, who did a review of it that i found out one of the engines is broken, the drive is broken, it needs new injectors, the engine mounts are broken, it has diesel leaks and broken wiring. This is not the end of the list, but more like the start.
I went back to Boatshed and Phil immediately went legal and refused to speak to us anymore.
So its now with both lawyers and the trading standards office, as to say the boat is not as advertised is a significant understatement.
Feeling less than impressed by Boatshed.

The subject of buying an selling comes up on here frequently. I have been on the forum for quite a few years and never have I seen such a blatant, almost textbook, example of exactly how NOT to buy a boat. I appreciate the poster states this was bought as a present, but he seems to have missed or at least been ignorant of the most basic 'rules' of buying a secondhand boat. Not sure it is incumbent at all on the broker to explain to any would be buyers these 'rules', after all their task is to seek a sale for their (vendor) client.

As long as the broker here has not knowingly lied / misled then they have, it seems done, their job.

From what has been said I wonder if the purchaser actually viewed the boat he bought himself - he was abroad he explains. He does not state this, and some of the complaints about the state the boat was then found in should surely have been fairly obvious. Not sure 'as long as the expensive stuff are in good order', means anything at all as far as any secondhand boat is concerned.

I have just looked at Boatshed website and the buying advice they provide seems to me to be perfectly reasonable ...

https://www.boatshed.com/aboutus/how-to-buy-a-boat

They actually mention the use of a surveyor in three separate bullet points, with one being a very specific recommendation to do so.

Not sure why the broker would be responsible for the subsequent delivery, but again we do not know the specific details.

I think the words here are Caveat Emptor.

I hope the poster gets his money back, if he is entitled to it, but from what has been set out I doubt he has any entitlement at all.

 

[johnalison]

My one encounter with an agent was when we sold our Sadler29 in 1999. Having failed to get interest in our club at a discounted price we put it in the hands of the chap at Tollesbury in time for the late summer boat show. He recommended a slightly higher price and the boat sold in the first half hour, with four offers during the morning. We stuck to the first offer and after a survey the boat sold, leaving us with the sum we had hoped for. We were treated very civilly and I think that we and our buyer got the service we hoped for.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Not sold through a broker, but bought a couple through brokers. When i bought my current boat i visited all of the brokers in the area and some were better than others, to say the least. I ended up buying one from Foxs at Ipswich and found them very good to deal with.

 

[Kelpie]

I've now reached the point where I see a private sale as a good thing, and dealing with a broker as a total pain. It's only by speaking directly with the owner/seller that you actually get accurate information. Brokers are the estate agents of the sea.

 

[Tranona]

Unfortunately i did not and everything that i was told turned out to not be true.
However the truth will always out and in this day and age of social media, people that cause other people such situations will inevitably lose out themselves.
Yes, i should have had a survey and yes, i should have flown over from Moscow to deal with this face to face.
However i did not and trusted people too much, now i am suffering the consequences. Moreover, it was my son's 21st Birthday present and it is he, that is suffering more than anyone.
If we had the chance to start the boat, at the time of the purchase, then we would have had more recourse, however as the owner failed to turn up to two handovers for river test, then did not send the engine keys for another six weeks, we did not find out the truth until two months after the transfer of ownership.
I mistakenly believed that using a broker afforded some protection, however, it seems that everyone on this site knows this is not the case and its an unspoken truth in the boating world.
Yes, i have learned a very bitter lesson, however i do not want other people to fall into the same trap that i did, so will do something about it, and am considering options to make buyers aware of this.

Much as one might want to sympathise with your situation, you really cannot blame the broker. They (as superheat points out) make it absolutely clear in their literature and in the contract you signed what the process is and the their role in that process.

Boatshed is a well established and respected organisation that follows all the correct procedures, but at the end of the day they make it clear it is your responsibility as a buyer to be satisfied with the boat before you hand over the money, as well as making it clear that the information they provide about the boat is provided by the owner.

If you have a claim it is against the seller rather than the broker, if you can show that he made untrue claims about the boat. However it is extremely difficult to construct a case based on this as owners/sellers tend not to make such statements. So just saying it is running and well maintained is not the same as claiming it has no faults such as you subsequently discovered. Hopefully your legal advisers will assess the strength of your case and advise you if you have no hope of winning. Pursuing such claims where it is essentially one person's word against another's is expensive and has a low chance of success. So the way forward is to accept that you got it wrong, get the boat fixed and enjoy it.

BTW buyers are generally aware of what is involved in buying used boats. You only have to do a bit of research such as read the guidance provided by all respectable brokers and their trade associations (ABYA and BMF) including reading the terms of the contract you signed, consult the RYA website or even invest £8.99 in a good little book that guides you through the process.

No need to try and make a big thing on social media - there really is no need for such "warnings".

 

[Seajet]

My one encounter with an agent was when we sold our Sadler29 in 1999. Having failed to get interest in our club at a discounted price we put it in the hands of the chap at Tollesbury in time for the late summer boat show. He recommended a slightly higher price and the boat sold in the first half hour, with four offers during the morning. We stuck to the first offer and after a survey the boat sold, leaving us with the sum we had hoped for. We were treated very civilly and I think that we and our buyer got the service we hoped for.

You must have been very well intentioned, and lucky.

On the other side of the coin I was asked to work on an Anderson 22 at Tollesbury, and meanwhile looked over another which was for sale there; the cabin soles / floors were completely rotted out due to a non-standard main hatch, the chainplates all non-standard and fitted with zinc bolts through the hull ( not deck by U bolt as standard ) and 6" overlength.

The trailer it sat upon ( so I couldn't inspect the keel plate ) was absolutely shot, dodgy even to use as a yard trolley.

I don't remember the rest, this was over 20 years ago but the list of serious faults was long and shocking.

I next saw the same boat advertised at Seedhouse's place as ' spiffing ready to go, with trailer' '.

I was asked by a keen youngster what she was like, so I told him in no uncertain terms - he was still keen so I rang up Seedhouses who were very evasive as soon as I asked meaningful questions like

' what' s the inventory ? '

' We don't do inventorys '

' Well has it at least got an anchor ? '

' We sell secondhand anchors '

' And is the trailer roadworthy ? '

' Well it got here '

--- Yes via backroads treated like eggs, I'd give it and any boat on it minutes to live at best on a normal 50mph road !

There are some true bastards out there, for a start I'd never, ever buy a boat without seeing her unless I had a close friend who was a surveyor I'd known all my life - and I knew secrets about him he'd rather keep quiet !

I happen to run an owners association, but if people ask me about a certain boat I will happily say ' check this ' and send a very thorough checklist covering every single thing I can think of after 40 years owning an Anderson 22; one can still be caught out, twice I had been sent decades old photo's, one case at Burnham was hardly recognisable from the photo, she had green streaks all over her white hull, the tiller was so rotten it had fallen off by sheer gravity, the engine in the cabin was seized, and to cap it all a new keel winch had been fitted - the wrong, unbraked type, so if the poor boat ever gets lifted the keel will drop and stay there, instant 4'6 " fin keeler !

I exchanged some choice words with the seller -it's a long grotty trip from West Sussex inc Dartford, no fun at all - fortunately I'd been paid to do this by a potential buyer - let's say that boat won't be appearing on my new website, but if anyone calls me about her I'll give them the whole story; shame as otherwise she's a good boat ready to go, a keen buyer could have a great boat within a couple of weekends' work - it's the attitude of the seller which p's people off at the outset.

 

[sailaboutvic]

40 years involved in sailing boat , I've brought and sold boats privately and through brokers , some have been good other unbelievable bad .
The worst case was my last boat which I had from new .
Four broker all in Greece and all British company , couldn't organize a piss up .
All of them Never turned up for appointments or turned up hours late ,
under valve the boat by thousands ,
two turned up without a camera,
one I had to explain what meant by keel type on the inventor list was ,
Although we had it advertised privately at the time we was told we still have to paid the full commission if we sold it .
All seen not bother if I listed it with them , there so many boats for sale in Greece that they can pick and chose boats , seen to be more interested in under valve boat to more them out ,
When I called them making out I was interested in another boat to see how well they performed one told me I had to wait weeks to view a boat of which one was 50 mts from his office and another one said the keys where on board just go and take a look .
Once I decided against my better judgement to use the best out of the four, it took six phone calls and three weeks before he got it listed at which point I given up and told him not to bother .
Ended up selling it privately after taken an offer for 15k more then all four suggested "in to day market it was all it was worth ".

The boat we have now we brought privately it took all of two weeks to do the deal .
Biggest problem with selling and buying privately is the money side of it all .
If your buying a boat for say a few thousand , it's no big deal turning up with the cash on the day ,
but when your buying in tens of tens of thousand it becomes a problems although the there are ways around it .
In our case we sat on the boat contracts in hand waiting for a phone call from the bank to say money was cleaned and in our account , bill of sale handed over , then we escorted them 250 miles to Sicily has they felt they didn't have the experience on sailing it that far on there own , ( a couple of over night involved ) with the option of me jumping on board if at any time they felt they couldn't manage it .
Needless to say we become good friends since .

The OP hasn't said how much he paid for the boat , if it was say a thousand or so I can understand him taken a chance but if it's a lot more to believe what anyone tells you be it a broker or selling and buying without at less seeing it is in my view very foolish putting it mildly , it's in the brokers interest to make a sale .
Like other have said you really should have had a survey as you not seen the boat .
Hope you get the boat sea worthy and your son can get enjoyment out of is present .

 

[Mr Cassandra]

And from experience ,if you think Greek brokers are untrustworthy Italian ones are a lot worse.

 

[Nauti Fox]

Bought our boat through Clarke and Carter Kent, first class service.