Blue Smoke on start up on Ford XLD.

[Jcorstorphine]

Following a series of disasters with my Ford XLD diesel engine last season, I finally got it running perfectly after a head refurbishment and a reconditioned fuel injection pump. At the beginning of the season, the engine started without any trace of smoke but now after only about 30 to 40 hours running, it emits blue smoke on start up and runs roughly to start with.

The smoke is not lube oil as it has a distinctive smell of badly combusted diesel and clears after a few blips on the throttle.

I thought it may have been a defective glow plug but these all give continuity on my multimeter.

I have tried to assess, the compression of each cylinder by turning the engine with a socket and there does appear to be one which is lower than the rest. However, if I open the camshaft oil filler cap, there is no sign of any blow back of fumes up through the oil galleries.

If it is not the compression and is not the glow plugs, that only leaves either a faulty injector or a leaking valve but the head was fully reconditioned at the end of last year.

I have also tried the technique of slackening off the fuel lines to the injectors one by one but that was not very conclusive.

Any thoughts.

jc

One day I will have an engine which runs for a complete season without a major strip down!

 

[carannah]

Were the glow-plugs renewed or the old ones re-used. They may have continuity but if old may take a while to glow and therefore provide the heat for startup

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Could be glow plugs

Were the glow-plugs renewed or the old ones re-used. They may have continuity but if old may take a while to glow and therefore provide the heat for startup

You may be right about the glow plugs. They were new when I rebuilt the engine but have always had to run them for about 30 to 40 seconds to get the engine to fire and the problem with the blue smoke has only just happened over the last few weeks.

Will take them out and test them for heat up time.

Regards

jc

 

[omega2]

Smoke and Fords

Does the smoke go away once under load? if so just single up your mooring and GO ours are ancient 6 cylinder fords, smoke like good uns on start up clean as whistles when warm and working. We have no glow plugs just excess fuel buttons.

 

[Jim@sea]

You should do a proper "Compression test" using a diesel compression tester in order to have all the information you need as to what the problem is. Unfortunately they are expensive to buy. However you could have a look for a mobile mechanic in your area and ask him to do a compression test for you. the chances are he will not have one in his tool kit but will know a friendly garage who will lend him one. Doing a compression test when you have an engine problem means that if your compressions are good its an external problem.

 

[Csail]

Well blue smoke is burning oil so guess piston rings or seals.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

If the engine is running rough and smoke emitted it sounds as if one cylinder isnt firing. That means lack of compression ( or a lack of fuel). If it then fires up when the engine has run and oil has circulated , that could be because the lube oil in the bore improves the sealing of the rings on the bad cylinder, you then get enough compression to ignite fuel and that cylinder starts to fire.

The classic test for bad sealing piston rings is to put a little oil in the cylinder and then to measure the compression. If the oil improves it, it's because the original seal wasnt up to scratch

Check the injectors first. Then try putting a little lube oil in the affected cylinder before trying a start.

 

[Jenaline IV]

As the smoke clears once warm I would not be suspecting piston rings just yet. Sounds like it could be one glowplug which may be faulty or that a valve stem oil seal has failed. If oil is coming down the valve stem when the engine is switched off, during normal operation the pressure in the chambers keeps oil out hence how the blue smoke disappears. Have you taken the glowplugs out for inspection? If one is covered in oil that may be your problem. Do you still get the smoke if you switch the engine off for 15mins and start it back up? Again if you do this may stregthen the case.

Oh and it if is the valve stem oil seal, with the right kit you can replace it without taking the head off.

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Still not sure what the problem is

Thanks for all the suggestions. I have jotted down all of the thoughts with my own comments but at the moment I am still not sure what to tackle first.

Valve stem seals? Although the smoke is blue, I do not think it is burning oil as the exhaust smells of un-burnt or poorly combusted diesel and not oil. The head was rebuilt at the end of last year with new seals so I don’t think it is oil leaking down a valve stem seal.

Oil Control Rings? Again for the reasons given above and the fact that the smoke clears within a few mins together with the fact that there are no fumes coming from the engine breather, I don’t think the problem lies here.

Compression rings ? This is a worry as I am sure that I can feel a significant difference between the cylinders when turning the engine using a large socket on ratchet socket drive. Three of the cylinders offer considerable resistance but suddenly flip over when I reach top dead centre whilst the forth just feels different. My concern here is that a compression ring has broken.

Sticky injector? I did had major problems with debris in the injectors due to my fuel pump bearing breaking up last year but the injectors were all cleaned and serviced and as stated earlier, within a few mins of start up the engine runs perfectly.

Glow plugs? I have to admit, the glow plugs were my first thought but having carried out a simple continuity test, I thought they would be ok. However, it has been pointed out that whilst they may not be open circuit, they could be low in power and one could be taking to long to heat up.

Summary. The problem started only a couple of weekends ago from just a trace of blue smoke on start up to the present situation where the smoke takes a few minutes to clear and the engine misfires during that time. If I let the engine cool for 15 mins it starts normally. My main concern is that there is some form of compression ring break up within the cylinders. However, you can actually hear the single cylinder misfiring on very slow tick over but then it start to pick up and the engine revs increase.

Plan. Having put it all down in text I feel I now have a plan. I am going to have another look at the glow plugs and see if I can either test them by taking them out or make up some form of bridge measurement to check the resistance which will be in the order of 0.1 ohm. If they are ok, I will take out the injectors and have them checked, after that it is an engine rebuild !

Many thanks to all for your help.

 

[duncanmack]

XLD Glow plugs

Hi John,

You say you have to heat the injectors for 30-40 seconds before it will fire? How do you "heat" the plugs? Simple switch or... do you have a timer relay on the boat? If you don't then the engine can miss and smoke until all 4 cylinders are happily running.

On the road vehicle XLD there is a glow plug timer relay which basically pre-heats the plugs for up to 13 seconds then the warning light goes out, you then start the car and the plugs remain energised for up to another 27 seconds. ie the plugs are still energised after the engine starts.
This is a bit of a simplification, but holds good.


Secondly, the glowplugs can check out resistance wise but still be faulty.

Take out the ones you haven't condemned with a resistance test and dip the end in oil - any oil will do. Then test them (individually) with a set of jump leads. Don't connect them for more than about 10 seconds . The oil should evaporate from the tip first then down to the body of the plug. If the oil starts evaporating part-way down the plug then it's fooked (a technical term).

Hope this helps.

 

[vyv_cox]

I would find it difficult to believe that a purely mechanical fault, such as ring fracture, would progress steadily over a few weekends. When a ring breaks the engine usually emits smoke, runs rough and is maybe noisy instantly and throughout the operating regime. Sounds much more like something deteriorating slowly. I assume tappets have all been checked? Glow plugs does seem to be the logical place to start investigating.

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Engine starting method

Hi John,

You say you have to heat the injectors for 30-40 seconds before it will fire? How do you "heat" the plugs? Simple switch or... do you have a timer relay on the boat? If you don't then the engine can miss and smoke until all 4 cylinders are happily running.

On the road vehicle XLD there is a glow plug timer relay which basically pre-heats the plugs for up to 13 seconds then the warning light goes out, you then start the car and the plugs remain energised for up to another 27 seconds. ie the plugs are still energised after the engine starts.
This is a bit of a simplification, but holds good.


Secondly, the glowplugs can check out resistance wise but still be faulty.

Take out the ones you haven't condemned with a resistance test and dip the end in oil - any oil will do. Then test them (individually) with a set of jump leads. Don't connect them for more than about 10 seconds . The oil should evaporate from the tip first then down to the body of the plug. If the oil starts evaporating part-way down the plug then it's fooked (a technical term).

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the information, I had no idea as to how long the Ford relay box kept the glow plugs running but is covered in my starting proceedure.

As this is a “hand knitted” engine installation, I have a standard (petrol type) ignition type switch (which I had in my garage) and a separate starter button (which I also had in my garage) The first click on the ignition switch energises the fuel solenoid, the second (spring loaded) click, energises the glow plugs through a 70 amp relay (garage)

To start the engine, I turn the ignition switch through the first position to energise the fuel solenoid and then hold the switch in the second position for 30 seconds to heat up the glow plugs, I then press the separate starter button until the engine fires (usually with a few seconds) Once the engine has fired I keep the glow plugs on for about 5 to 10 seconds and the engine used to run perfectly. In other words, I took the place of the Ford box of timers.

The reason for the extended glow plug time is I think down to poor compression but the engine ran perfectly and started without any smoke on starting and when running. There were no fumes from the engine itself and the exhaust was very clean. To be honest, considering the age of this ex automobile (Fiesta) engine, I was astonished at how clean the exhaust was with virtually no trace of fumes whatsoever.

The evidence would now suggest that it is a glow plug problem as I still get the uneven running and smoke if I keep the glow plugs energised much longer after the engine has started. The smoke only clears after I blip the engine revs a few times. I will go down to the boat and take out all of the glowplugs and test then as per your “oil test”

However as I am a self confessed “engine hypochondriac” and am a bit worried about the perceived loss of compression on one cylinder, I may still pull out the engine and do a full bottom end rebuild with new bearings and pistons while parts are still available . The cost of that is about £1,000 including a re-bore and regrind of the crankshaft. However this will be a lot cheaper than a new 40 HP Beta or Nanni diesel and will see me out.

Regards to all.

 

[Heckler]

I would find it difficult to believe that a purely mechanical fault, such as ring fracture, would progress steadily over a few weekends. When a ring breaks the engine usually emits smoke, runs rough and is maybe noisy instantly and throughout the operating regime. Sounds much more like something deteriorating slowly. I assume tappets have all been checked? Glow plugs does seem to be the logical place to start investigating.

Vyv
my guess, a bad injector, notice the phrase in on of his posts, debris after the pump went bad. Although they were serviced, waht did they do, if there was any debris anywhere, I would have had the tips changed at the very least.
Notice also the ref to slight smoke after the rebuild.
If hes metered the heaters as he said, then they should be ok
Stu

 

[pmyatt]

Following a series of disasters with my Ford XLD diesel engine last season, I finally got it running perfectly after a head refurbishment and a reconditioned fuel injection pump. At the beginning of the season, the engine started without any trace of smoke but now after only about 30 to 40 hours running, it emits blue smoke on start up and runs roughly to start with.

The smoke is not lube oil as it has a distinctive smell of badly combusted diesel and clears after a few blips on the throttle.

I thought it may have been a defective glow plug but these all give continuity on my multimeter.

I have tried to assess, the compression of each cylinder by turning the engine with a socket and there does appear to be one which is lower than the rest. However, if I open the camshaft oil filler cap, there is no sign of any blow back of fumes up through the oil galleries.

If it is not the compression and is not the glow plugs, that only leaves either a faulty injector or a leaking valve but the head was fully reconditioned at the end of last year.

I have also tried the technique of slackening off the fuel lines to the injectors one by one but that was not very conclusive.

Any thoughts.

jc

One day I will have an engine which runs for a complete season without a major strip down!

If you had the head done but did not put in new piston rings, I would suspect those are the problem now.

 

[Jenaline IV]

If you had the head done but did not put in new piston rings, I would suspect those are the problem now.

Why?

Plugs sound the best bet and the cheapest/easiest to eliminate first. Not much for a volt meter to test the relay, or even to replace the plugs. Piston rings are a difficult and costly job to replace due to likely bore damage, besides the symptons do not point to the rings.

 

[Jcorstorphine]

A Homer Simpson moment !!!!!!!!!!

Well, I went down to the boat and carried out several checks on the Glow Plugs, the first was a simple voltage drop test which did not show any significant differences between all four glow plugs. Next check was to remove all four glow plugs and inspect their visual appearance. They were all slightly different but with no distinct pattern.

As per instructions from “Duncanmack” I oiled the four injectors and watched them heat evenly from the tip. Having put them down, the bodies all felt the same temperature so my conclusion has to be that the glow plugs are all OK.

As the cylinder head was fully reconditioned last year, I checked all the valve clearances which were all OK.

I then started up the engine with the usual blue smoke and blipped the throttle to clear the fug. When the engine had warmed up under load, I put the gear in neutral and one by one slackend the fuel lines to kill each injector one by one. They all stopped the engine indicating that with the engine warm all cylinders were puting out similar power (I think)

My suspicion was now focused on my injectors in a cold state which had been a source of conern in the past due to the fuel pump breaking up.

IT WAS AT THIS TIME I SUFFERED MY HOMER SIMPSON MOMENT !!!!!

Some time ago I posted this topic

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247608

which related to the merits of mixing two stroke oil with diesel in the ratio of 200:1. Well about three weeks ago, I added two stroke to my tank in the ratio of 200:1 and I have just realised that my smoke on start up started about then. DOH !!!

I need to go on a long long cruise to burn up about 40 litres of 2T Diesel and then get my injectors cleaned as it looks as if they may be dribbling when cold. Bit like me.

For anyone wishing to share my "DOH moment, the following may be of some help.

http://free-loops.com/download-free-loop-1000.html

 

[Heckler]

Well, I went down to the boat and carried out several checks on the Glow Plugs, the first was a simple voltage drop test which did not show any significant differences between all four glow plugs. Next check was to remove all four glow plugs and inspect their visual appearance. They were all slightly different but with no distinct pattern.

As per instructions from “Duncanmack” I oiled the four injectors and watched them heat evenly from the tip. Having put them down, the bodies all felt the same temperature so my conclusion has to be that the glow plugs are all OK.

As the cylinder head was fully reconditioned last year, I checked all the valve clearances which were all OK.

I then started up the engine with the usual blue smoke and blipped the throttle to clear the fug. When the engine had warmed up under load, I put the gear in neutral and one by one slackend the fuel lines to kill each injector one by one. They all stopped the engine indicating that with the engine warm all cylinders were puting out similar power (I think)

My suspicion was now focused on my injectors in a cold state which had been a source of conern in the past due to the fuel pump breaking up.

IT WAS AT THIS TIME I SUFFERED MY HOMER SIMPSON MOMENT !!!!!

Some time ago I posted this topic

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247608

which related to the merits of mixing two stroke oil with diesel in the ratio of 200:1. Well about three weeks ago, I added two stroke to my tank in the ratio of 200:1 and I have just realised that my smoke on start up started about then. DOH !!!

I need to go on a long long cruise to burn up about 40 litres of 2T Diesel and then get my injectors cleaned as it looks as if they may be dribbling when cold. Bit like me.

For anyone wishing to share my "DOH moment, the following may be of some help.

http://free-loops.com/download-free-loop-1000.html

Further to other posts I have made, oil is oil, diesels burn oil cleanly. 2T will burn cleanly, the only issue with diesels burning lighter and heavier oils is getting the fuel thru the injection system AND not messing the system up due to inadequate lube properties.
The confusion arises because peeps are used to petrol engines not burning oil cleanly. Basically petrol engines burn "gas", (hence the americanism "gas") the carb or injectors turn the liquid in to a "gas", heavier hydro carbons dont atomise or turn to gas and so burn incompletely giving us the familiar white blue haze typified by 2 strokes.
Going back to the original prob, I stand by my original diag, there is a duff injector/s not performing when it is cold.
Stu

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Its not the injectors

Further to other posts I have made, oil is oil, diesels burn oil cleanly. 2T will burn cleanly, the only issue with diesels burning lighter and heavier oils is getting the fuel thru the injection system AND not messing the system up due to inadequate lube properties.
The confusion arises because peeps are used to petrol engines not burning oil cleanly. Basically petrol engines burn "gas", (hence the americanism "gas") the carb or injectors turn the liquid in to a "gas", heavier hydro carbons dont atomise or turn to gas and so burn incompletely giving us the familiar white blue haze typified by 2 strokes.
Going back to the original prob, I stand by my original diag, there is a duff injector/s not performing when it is cold.
Stu

Sorry Stu,


Injectors are ok. I took out the four injectors and had them tested at the diesel repair shop. Spray patterns were as good as new which is what they should be as they have only done about 30 (ish) hours since a full rebuild. Really strange thing is that when I fitted them back in the engine and bled all of the lines tight up to the injector connections, the engine started right away and after just a few misfires (air in fuel lines) it ran without any smoke.

Ran the engine for about 15 mins at normal cruising 1500 RPM under load to make sure that all the fuel lines were clear of air and shut the engine down. Will try starting it again on Friday and see what it does.

To recap, Valve clearances are ok, valve seals are ok, oil seals should be ok, glow plugs are ok and injectors are ok, that just leaves injection timing or compression test to be carried out. Personally, I think it is low compression in one cylinder and for this reason, I am warming to the possibility of rebuilding the entire engine. The other factor which makes me think that the engine has low power in one cylinder is that the engine has never been, what I would call, smooth (well diesel smooth)

I had problems with torsional vibration early on which was threatening to destroy the new Hurth (now ZF) gearbox. I had to add a flywheel weight to reduce the rattling in the gearbox and allow the engine to tick over at lower revs.

According to the supplier of the marinisation kit, some engines need the weight, other don’t. In my case, a low power in one of the cylinders could cause this type of vibration.

Regards

John

One day I will have an engine which does not need to be stripped down at the end of every season !!!!!!!

 

[NickRobinson]

Diminishing returns.....

Hi-

Glad your motor is still doing it's job, despite the fog.

I'm thinking you need to remember a great advantage you have over owners of dedicated marine engines. Your Fiesta engine can be swapped for a 'perfect' scrapper for less than the cost of a curry for two, or a gasket set, so- be careful about the costs of rebores/grinds.

Years ago a friend let his local garage recon his OHC Austin Maxi engine, (don't laugh) £1500! later the car failed it's test terminally (same garage...)

Nick

 

[capeholm]

John,
could it be that air penetrates the fuel system at standstill? If some air is in the system, it could cause very late fuel injection - as the air has to be compressed first - resulting in poor ignition and combustion. Try and bleed the fuel system before the next start carefully, if it starts without smoke you might be closer to the solution!
Good luck
Horst