Blending best of the old and new

Jmolan

Jmolan

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I have wanted to post a photo of my rope rigging. I am having trouble with the attachments part of the post. I will give you a URL. It is my boat they did a feature on, so I hope it is not tagged as advertisements. The avatar is of me holding all of my rig out in one hand. 7.5 kgs. I saved 20 kgs. by shedding the wire rig.
The reason to post here is the Dead-Eyes I am using now, I have eliminated all turnbuckles, and gone to the "new" dead-eye. I can see this being of interest to the classic boats. As well as eliminated all steel shackles and replaced everything with a Dynex solution. No more wire on the boat.

http://www.colligomarine.com/docs/newsletters/Jan 2009.pdf

There is a 1936 S&S rigged with turnbuckles (the fittings will work with our without turnbuckles) in Australia. The owner is also a rigger, and is very happy with the weight removed from his rig. A photo is at the bottom of this page

http://www.strongrope.com/news.htm

A recent project in Chesapeake bay USA had a 56' Schooner saved 300 kgs. from his rig by going to Dynnex Dux rope rigging. Pretty amazing results...:-)
 
Hi Jmolan,

I have been thinking about the benefits of deadeyes and modern ropes for a while now. For the more traditional vessel the deadeyes could be made from galvanised mild steel or ally' no reason for the cost to go up, it should be easy to bring the costs down.

Nice to see a mix of new and old, modern and traditional, I would like to see Gaffers with light alloy Gaffs and carbon masts, weight aloft is always an issue.

Well done for bringing this to our / my attention.

Simes
 
Simes,
I agree on the lighter weight and strength advantages. So far the cost are in line with SS wire. And about 1/3 the cost of the Hi-Tec PBO or carbon rigs.
There is a very good read on how most traditional sailors have held back and let the racers bust and break all the new fangled stuff. It is written by a well respected rigger in the US. Brion Toss, who is known for rigging traditional rigs. It was written 5 years ago!

http://www.briontoss.com/education/archive/miscsept04.htm

My self, I made an attempt to get my thoughts down on how I came into the world of HM ropes through fishing in Alaska. Its rather long and a bit Rah-Rah! I tend to get excited about this kind of stuff...:-)

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f116/staying-with-synthetics-30405.html
 
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From Wooden Boat Magazine Maggie B

“When Nigel suggested carbon-fiber spars, I said, ‘It
sounds expensive,’ ” said Blair. “ Nigel said, ‘You’ll save
money,’ ” he recalled. Irens explained that to meet
the 145-degree righting angle specified in the design
brief using traditional wooden spars, a lot of lead would
have to be added to the shallow keel. The combined
cost of that additional lead and the traditional spars was
higher than the price of custom carbon-fiber spars from GMT (Bristol, Rhode Island). He added that
the light gaffs aloft work better, especially
in light air where a heavy spar swings and
slats with the motion of the vessel, often compromising
sail shape and ultimately speed. The main gaff in wood
was estimated at 237 lbs; the carbon-fiber option weighed
just 71.
Each mast, though probably strong enough to go
unstayed, is supported by a single Spectra shroud on either
side. This scant application of light material further reduces
rig weight from multiple stays of conventional wire or rod.
The termination and tensioning of shrouds is pure
“fusion schooner” stuff—new modern materials applied
to traditional, even ancient, technology. Vectran lanyards
rove through cast-bronze deadeyes are tightened or slackened
the same way tarred hemp through lignum vitae
deadeyes adjusted rig tension more than a century ago.

This is what I found when I took 20 kg's. off my little 34'. Stood up much better, and the motion in light airs became more fwd. moving as opposed to the old hobby horsing.
 
Disadvantages?

Seanick said:
Disadvantages are:-

Low chafe resistance
Low Uv resistance
short service life
Click to expand...

Nick is the expert, but can I ask how much lower? Chafe can be coped with/designed round, I'd guess; as for UV resistance and (consequent?) short life, how short is short? For a boat like mine, laid up for 5-6 months with the rig in a nice dark barn, and bearing in mind the oft-quoted 10-year life of SS rigging, is there going to be a big difference?

A worthwhile debate, especiallypertinent for me as I am trying to face up to paying for a new mast and a (gaff) rig at last.

cheers

Chris
 
I don't know exactly what the UV resistance of these synthetics are, but think how short a life the anti-UV strip on your furller is, or webbing jackstays (about 2 years if left on all the time).
In a heavy displacement boat there is very little advantage in saving a few kilos aloft. If you are sailing a lightweight something, buying sails every other year to keep at the front of the fleet, then it may be worth it.
If the vessel has been designed from scratch with a lightweight rig then you have to stick with it. I can think of one Irens hull, gaff rigged in the trad (heavy) manner that falls over in a force three. It was designed for carbon spars and no standing rigging.

Stainless wire has to be replaced every 10 years to keep the insurance company happy but galvanised wire can last indefinately (well at least 40 years). One varnishes the mast each year, and coats the rigging at the same time. Simples.

I have come across a couple of classics with un-sheathed modern fibre rigging components. In both cases the fall of the halyard had chafed half way through, and after 2 and three years needed changing. I changed them back to ss wire. Loosing your mast is messy, inconvenient, and expensive.

On my lugger I use Vectran for the bobstay purchase as it does not stretch, and 10mm Vectran for the runners, 1:1 onto a winch. However the vectran is sheathed from the UV as I am not worried about the drag of the extra diameter, and if either fails I won't loose the mast.

Using a fibre shackle to hold a sheet block on a traveller is, in my view etc, a poor application. By all means bind it tight with a decent lashing to void it crashing around when tacking, but a slack 'shackle' is just wrong. A small weight saving at deck level is really pixxing in the wind.

Stepping quietly off my soapbox now.......
 
Just got back after being on the road.....

Seanick said:
I don't know exactly what the UV resistance of these synthetics are, but think how short a life the anti-UV strip on your furller is, or webbing jackstays (about 2 years if left on all the time).

This is comparing apples to oranges. A huge problem in the synthetic world is that folks tend to lump them all together as "that new stuff". Your examples are of material that is not even close to the fiber rope material. There is a good comparison page at: http://www.psrope.com/ropeproperties.aspx

In a heavy displacement boat there is very little advantage in saving a few kilos aloft.

How about 300 kilos? From a 56' Schooner in Chesapeake Bay. Brian Duff did the rigging: http://www.voyageundersail.com/


If you are sailing a lightweight something, buying sails every other year to keep at the front of the fleet, then it may be worth it.

Between your two examples, (A big heavy Gaffer and and a light weight flyer) I would guess there is 99% of the rest of the sailing world What about the average Joe who take 50 Kgs off his 40' cruising rig? No Advantages?

If the vessel has been designed from scratch with a lightweight rig then you have to stick with it. I can think of one Irens hull, gaff rigged in the trad (heavy) manner that falls over in a force three. It was designed for carbon spars and no standing rigging.

And this is a dis advantage? It is not like there is a shortage of light weight rigging available. I believe Nigel knows what make a boat go well. Someone thought they could out guess him?

Stainless wire has to be replaced every 10 years to keep the insurance company happy but galvanized wire can last indefinitely (well at least 40 years). One varnishes the mast each year, and coats the rigging at the same time. Simples.

I agree. In fact I know if 7x7 Galv. wire that is going on 100 years. Best you can get for longevity.

I have come across a couple of classics with un-sheathed modern fiber rigging components. In both cases the fall of the halyard had chafed half way through, and after 2 and three years needed changing. I changed them back to ss wire. Loosing your mast is messy, inconvenient, and expensive.

There are many things to consider when changing over to fiber ropes. If you have a high chafe area as you describe, it would be poor engineering to use rope. This does not sound like a fault of the rope, but of the application.

On my lugger I use Vectran for the bobstay purchase as it does not stretch, and 10mm Vectran for the runners, 1:1 onto a winch. However the vectran is sheathed from the UV as I am not worried about the drag of the extra diameter, and if either fails I won't loose the mast.

Vectran is low stretch because it has a Dyneema Core. Dyneema is the base material we are using for standing rigging. The creep and the stretch that regular Dyneema has is unsuitable for standing rigging (as is Vectran)

Regular Dyneema is heated and stretched by Hampidjan of Iceland. It becomes a whole new animal. http://www.hampidjan.is/media/pdf/002_Dynex_75Duxslittaflaagu02.pdf

Compare Vetran double braid 10 mm has breaking strength of 12,500 lbs..

The smaller 9mm Dynex Dux is over twice as strong at 27,500 lbs.
The 7mm Dynex Dux is 15,500 lbs.

Using a fibre shackle to hold a sheet block on a traveller is, in my view etc, a poor application. By all means bind it tight with a decent lashing to void it crashing around when tacking, but a slack 'shackle' is just wrong. A small weight saving at deck level is really pixxing in the wind.

I agree, in my photos I am trying to show all the applications I have thought of so far.....this stuff takes a while to get your head around..... And I can do it without tools, and without the banging of metal on deck, or the worry of maetal fatigue and failure.....:-)

Stepping quietly off my soapbox now.......
Click to expand...
 
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Well, some good points well made! T
he Dux stuff is obviously very strong!
I still have my concerns over resistance to chafe, unpredictable UV degridation, and that a heavy displacement vessel won't really benifit loosing that much weight aloft. In fact, it may make it more uncomfortable, with a faster motion.
-My lugger hardly heels until 15 knots, and feels horrible at sea with the masts out.
 
As far as I'm aware with Dyneema it's resistance to UV and chafe is as good as you can hope for in any fibre. Obviously SS or galvanised wire will chafe and degrade less, but dyneema can be longer with less stretch. There are pro's and cons for both really.

A completely different animal is PBO, which if exposed to the sun for 20 minutes will lose 50% of it's strength.
 
Good discussion! We are hearing from some of the original boat's that have had PBO for 3 or 4 years now, and they got it as a sponsorship thing. They are shocked to say the least when they see the price and the fact they are over due for a replacement already.
Colligomarine.com will be doing Nigel Caulders new boat in Sweden soon. It is a 48' Malo. It will have Dynex Dux covered with an over braid for very long term life. It will add 1.5 mm to the rope size.
Interesting that the very best cover material they could find was Dynex SK-75.....:-) Best for both UV and chafe resistance.
Colligo has a Westsail 32 at the Annapolis boat show. We call it the "Wireless Westsail" Bowsprit, bobstay, boomkin, all the shrouds and stays in 9mm Dynex Dux. It has Deadeyes with about a 1/2 meter travel on the lashings. Lots of interest and raised eyebrows at the show!
 
Seanick said:
-My lugger hardly heels until 15 knots...
Click to expand...

At 15 knots we have one or two reefs in and a way of stiffening the boat a little without having to make a new hollow spruce mast seems quite attractive on the surface. But I wouldn't have the nerve to change the standing rigging and I don't imagine that just changing the just halyards and runners is going to make much difference on our little mast. Plus there is the little matter of the appearance - not that I know what this stuff looks like to be fair.
I expect I should make a new, lighter, gaff and throw away the heavy gaff saddle in favour for some ash jaws instead :).
 
I will try to post some photos tomorrow or so of the Westsail, it was nice to have a 1976 vintage boat at the boat show.....The Westsail saved 125 lbs. out of the rig. And over 100 lbs. off the bow with a new sprit and rope rigging.
We have contracted with a Bristol Channel Cutter to re-rig all in Dynex Dux. He is having a new wooden mast built as well as a Gaff. Should be a fun project. I will try to get photos as it progresses.:D
 
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OK I posted 18 or so shots of the Westsail that was just at the Annappolis boat show to show off her new rig. Just click on the URL below...Lots of interesting reactions. Everything from WHOA! I WANT THAT! to .......Are you kidding me? I would never trust that stuff....and everything in between.
I think my most interesting question is "what would you do if a mad man had a machete and chopped down your rig?.....All I could say was....uhhh well? I don't make those kind of enemy's.....:D
 
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