Birchwood 25 purchase

[plumpton]

Hi all

I am about to buy a 1981 Birchwood 25 fitted with a Volvo Penta 145a engine on a 270 stern drive.

We have had a Birchwood in the past but it had the more popular sea tiger 1600cc engine installed.

Does anyone have any pointers on what I should look out for on the Volvo Penta engine? We are due to take the boat out for a run this weekend before proceeding with a survey. I understand the the brokerage team that the engine AND leg were serviced in late 2015. We have heard the engine running and it started on the button. Unfortunately the leg lifted up when popping the engine in to reverse. The marina we are purchasing from is lifting the boat this week to resolve the leg issue before we commence river trials. The brokerage guy says this has happened due to lack of use by the current owner.

Whilst looking over the boat I noticed that there was an impeller lying around. I didn't check it it was new or used so I am wondering if there has been an over heating issue with the engine in the past?

We will be testing the boat on a river so speed limits apply. There is no chance of running the engine under heavy load to see if a steady temperature is maintained.

Any pointers on popular Birchwood faults and popular Volvo Penta faults would be hugely appreciated.

We are due to test the boat this coming weekend.

 

[IAIA3259]

pm sent

 

[Murv]

I can't really express just how carefully you need to interrogate the service history for that outdrive, and I'm speaking as a long suffering owner of the very same unit.
It's not quite hopeless, IVSS marine were offering full recon units for £700.00 recently which is a far cheaper option than keep patching the thing back up.
But, in spite of this, I had a recon unit <2 Years ago, changed the oil the following Year, and then last Year it went off for another rebuild due to fishing line damaging an oil seal.
Also, check the H frame very carefully, I'm not sure you can even get replacements now?

Is a 145 engine 145hp? Make absolutely sure that you check the maximum hp that the 270 leg is designed for. Pushing too much power through it is expensive, frustrating and time consuming...

Do you really need a boat on an outdrive? or is there anything on a shaft, or outboard, that would do?

After owning a 270 for over 3 Years now, I can confidently say that even with an absolutely religious maintenance program, and two rebuilds, I will never, ever have another boat with an outdrive, especially a 270.

Good luck!

 

[Chris_d]

I would echo Murv's advise above tread very carefully with an old outdrive and Volvo petrol engine.
The 145A and 270 OD were sold as a package but neither have a reputation for reliability at the age they are at now, the outdrive kicking up issue is nothing to do with lack of use, the reverse spring catch mechanism is knackered
If the broker is telling porkies already be careful.

 

[Murv]

It's possible that the outdrive kicking up isn't down to a knackered reverse latch, when mine was doing it to start with it was because the transom pin was completely corroded through.
After that, it was down to twigs etc jamming in there.
The problem is, if it keeps doing it, it kills the UJ which then smashes the gearbox which is what happened to mine after a couple of Months.
Either way, it's not good. you either need to repair the anti-reverse latch, replace the transom pin (or both) then just hope that the UJ hasn't taken too much of a battering if it's been doing it regularly.

Sorry, OP, I don't mean to be so negative.
Below is the thread I started when I first joined the forums and was looking to buy my first boat.
The good folk on here repeatedly warned me about petrol engines and outdrives.
Luckily, the warnings about petrol sunk in, but the outdrives bit didn't.

On the plus side, I have learned my lesson about outdrives. I now own a new (to me) boat, twin diesels on shafts, and am finally enjoying the hobby immensely.

Anyway, best of luck, and if you have a spare few Hours, have a read through my thread as there is a wealth of good advice in there that I so desperately wish I'd taken:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...cruiser-no-real-experience-asking-for-trouble

 

[plumpton]

Thanks for the comments to far.

The engine and outdrive were meant to have been serviced last year. I have asked to see the paperwork to confirm this.

The boat was moved to the sales pontoon a couple of weeks back and the reverse gear worked then ok as far as I know.

We are due to test this weekend and if that goes ok we will get a surveyer in to go through things. In guessing they will look at the outdrive mounts as part of the survey?

So my basic question is... am I mad to even be looking at this boat with the outdrive?

 

[Chris_d]

Not mad but tread carefully, surveyors don't normally check engine and outdrive unless you ask for a separate engine survey.

 

[Murv]

Hopefully you'll get some less biased views than mine from the good people on here...



Yes, the surveyor should examine the H frame, but I can't imagine it would be more than a cursory wiggle.
You'd need to get from the surveyor exactly what he will/won't do, but it's more a check of seaworthiness than anything else in my limited experience.

For our latest boat, I had a survey carried out, but also had a separate engines/mechanicals survey done. That's the one I based my decision on.

EDIT: Didn't see Chris D's post above, in that case, make even more sure of what's covered! For my recent survey, the guy did check the drive systems etc, but only for how secure they were/tired bearings etc. I assumed they'd do the same on an outdrive but probably not then. But, you need to clarify it with your surveyor.

 

[oldgit]

........Has been serviced recently .
This could mean anything from his mate with manual who does odd jobs to the local Volvo Penta dealer invoicing the owner for £1500 + for a complete and full once over..
It could also mean that somebody visually checked the rubber ware for holes, undid the oil drain and checked for the milky mess that announces water and a lot of grief and ran grease gun over the nipples.
There will be some well serviced and much loved outdrives out there,your problem will be finding them.
What usually happens is that somebody gets fed up with the constant drip drip of expence purely because a previous owner has neglected the vital and constant care these things constantly need.
The boat always ends up back on the market with the bare minimum done to get the thing going and the seller able to keep straight face when asked if the boat has had any problems.
The catch 22 is that most small older boats will only have outdrives, shaft driven stuff with diesels are like hens teeth.
Just make sure you are not buying somebody elses problems.

 

[Murv]

There's one here with diesel and shaft drive.
Looks quite tidy in the pictures, although they could be Years old and the ad is very brief

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/Cabin-cruiser-for-sale/birchwood-25/127664#34QCFrEeD34eAUBO.97

 

[scottie]

the 145/270 combination was an excellent set up and assuming the leg oil has not been contaminated and the bellows and seals in good order.
It is true to say that as boats fall down the ladder of age and less inclination to spend on maintainance the problems increase.
It is worth checking for water leaks from the raw water pump as they can spray onto the timing gears and the build up of rust induces belt slip which can cause expensive head/valve damage.
There are some critics of outdrives who would suggest quick resale but there are thousands of boats out there with them and most reputable engine suppliers market them so pinch ofsalt etc
It some times pays to look at previous posts
There are also a fair number of unsuited drive/engine combinations that will never work usually trying to pair mismatched units from the bargain store.

 

[scottie]

I can't really express just how carefully you need to interrogate the service history for that outdrive, and I'm speaking as a long suffering owner of the very same unit.
It's not quite hopeless, IVSS marine were offering full recon units for £700.00 recently which is a far cheaper option than keep patching the thing back up.
But, in spite of this, I had a recon unit <2 Years ago, changed the oil the following Year, and then last Year it went off for another rebuild due to fishing line damaging an oil seal.
Also, check the H frame very carefully, I'm not sure you can even get replacements now?

Is a 145 engine 145hp? Make absolutely sure that you check the maximum hp that the 270 leg is designed for. Pushing too much power through it is expensive, frustrating and time consuming...

Do you really need a boat on an outdrive? or is there anything on a shaft, or outboard, that would do?

After owning a 270 for over 3 Years now, I can confidently say that even with an absolutely religious maintenance program, and two rebuilds, I will never, ever have another boat with an outdrive, especially a 270.

Don't confuse HP with Torque and the 270 came in several versions of lower gear ratios to suit diesel V6/8 and inline 4 cyl petrol

Good luck!

 

[CLB]

Blimey theres a lot of negativity in this thread. Yes an old 270 will need a certain amount of nurturing but if you can get a whole recon one for £700 is it really a problem. How much would a replacement gearbox for the shaft drive one be? What is the price difference between the boat the OP is looking at the the £10k diesel shaft one? How many recon outdrives would that buy?

And yes I have owned outdrive powered boats for the last 20 years so I do understand their little foibles. it's true that you hear of regular horror stories from outdrive owners, not just old ones either, but I have heard a few (not as many I admit) horror stories about inboard shaft drive boats. They are not immune despite what some on here say. At the Birchwood 25 end of the market you are buying a project at best. It might be an up and running project, but keeping it that way will need time, work and money. That's just the way it is and if the worst that you face is a £700 bill for a recon outdrive I think you should count yourself lucky. I've seen the £20k+ bill that one of my shaft drive owning friends received when a gearbox let go.

 

[Murv]

If you're referring to my engine, then £8000 for the engine back in 2000 is hardly "bargain store." However, I can well believe that I have a badly matched engine/drive combo (it wasn't spec'd by me, but by a previous owner)
Thanks for the clarification on the power handling of a 270, I thought I'd read somewhere of the upper limit being 130hp, hence my warning to the OP to check, but it appears they can go a lot higher if suitably geared as you say.

Anyway, I wish the OP the very best of luck, I'm simply warning of my experience with a 270 outdrive.

 

[Murv]

Blimey theres a lot of negativity in this thread. Yes an old 270 will need a certain amount of nurturing but if you can get a whole recon one for £700 is it really a problem. How much would a replacement gearbox for the shaft drive one be? What is the price difference between the boat the OP is looking at the the £10k diesel shaft one? How many recon outdrives would that buy?

And yes I have owned outdrive powered boats for the last 20 years so I do understand their little foibles. it's true that you hear of regular horror stories from outdrive owners, not just old ones either, but I have heard a few (not as many I admit) horror stories about inboard shaft drive boats. They are not immune despite what some on here say. At the Birchwood 25 end of the market you are buying a project at best. It might be an up and running project, but keeping it that way will need time, work and money. That's just the way it is and if the worst that you face is a £700 bill for a recon outdrive I think you should count yourself lucky. I've seen the £20k+ bill that one of my shaft drive owning friends received when a gearbox let go.

I completely agree! I've only spent around £2000.00 running my outdrive over the last 3.5 Years, which is peanuts compared to what it's going to cost if I wallop something hard enough with the new shaft drive boat.
But, it wasn't so much the money that was so frustrating, it was the time.
We lost 3 Months of that first Summer we owned the boat, then numerous lift-outs to fix the niggling problems (not costed into that £2K either) which all take time.
Plus, all the disappointment of trudging back to the car after getting all excited at a trip out in the boat only to find that the leg wouldn't lock down or engage reverse.

Anyway, I'm out of this discussion.
I've recounted my experience, the OP will need to get some more balanced views and decide on what's the best route for him

 

[Chris_d]

Murv think your 130hp max myth/quote probably refered to a typical diesel fitted to a 270 drive, its not the power they can't handle but the torque, a 130hp diesel will put out loads more OD busting torque than a 145/171/175hp petrol engine that it will have been typically mated to it.

Don't think this has been a particularly Outdrive rubbishing thread CLB, even Oldgits reply was fairly tame by his standards

I have two fairly well behaved 290DP drives and so far they have been very reliable, however this Brichwood does sound like a very typical cheap inland boat that has been passed around the local brokers for many years slowly accumulating loads of faults as each unsuspecting first time buyer comes along every two or three years.

If I asked for a test drive and on engaging reverse the drive kicked up on a boat of this age and type, I would probably recommend any first time buyer walks away there and then.

 

[KevB]

I must be one of the lucky one's with regards to outdrives. 14 years old, 1200 hours and nothing but a service every other year. I'd guess outdrive boats out numbers shafts by a huge amount in the UK therefore likely to hear the horror stories. Or it could be that shafts are normally on larger boats with rich owners who just pay any bills and not bitch about it?

 

[oldgit]

We all start out with outdrives and most probably an evil petrol engine, mine had the endearing habit of cutting out just when you needed it most ie entering a lock and wanting to stop or opening the throttle to desperately get out the way of some vast ship bearing down on you.

Yes an old 270 will need a certain amount of nurturing but if you can get a whole recon one for £700 is it really a problem.

Plus lift out £3-400 and somebody to fit it, plus new rubberware and bits £150.00 , your surely not going to fit the old stuff ?

I've seen the £20k+ bill that one of my shaft drive owning friends received when a gearbox let go

Yea.... but not in a Brichwood 25 set up,more probably about the same money and no lift out and probably once in the lifetime of the boat ..

Seriously the OP is almost certainly going to end up with an outdrive boat, folks.
,Just make sure you do not end up with an end of life terminal nightmare that awaits the unwary.

 

[plumpton]

Thanks all for your comments.

The boat is being lifted out this week at the current owners expense to fix the leg lifting issue I spotted whilst looking over the boat last weekend.

I am expecting to take the boat out for a cruise this coming weekend to check it handles and performs as expected. I will inevitably be popping the boat in to reverse a number of times to check the leg locking mechanism. If that goes well we'll proceed with the survey.

My parents have had shaft drive boats in the past so i know a bit about boats. One of them was a 36ft James Silver made in 1946. That was a beauty. As mentioned previously, the parents had a birchwood 25 in the 80's. I'm not too concerned about the boat, just the leg.

I have looked at so many 25's over the years and this one has the best cabin and cockpit by a long way so the boat has had some love over the years.

Fingers crossed the river trials will go ok and the outdrive behaves itself. As mentioned above, I'm not adverse to lifting the boat and having a crack at fitting a reconditioned leg every few years. I'm ok with a set of spanners.... I don't have specific knowledge yet but I reckon I could manage it with the right equipment and manuals...

 

[Murv]

Thanks all for your comments.

The boat is being lifted out this week at the current owners expense to fix the leg lifting issue I spotted whilst looking over the boat last weekend.

I am expecting to take the boat out for a cruise this coming weekend to check it handles and performs as expected. I will inevitably be popping the boat in to reverse a number of times to check the leg locking mechanism. If that goes well we'll proceed with the survey.

My parents have had shaft drive boats in the past so i know a bit about boats. One of them was a 36ft James Silver made in 1946. That was a beauty. As mentioned previously, the parents had a birchwood 25 in the 80's. I'm not too concerned about the boat, just the leg.

I have looked at so many 25's over the years and this one has the best cabin and cockpit by a long way so the boat has had some love over the years.

Fingers crossed the river trials will go ok and the outdrive behaves itself. As mentioned above, I'm not adverse to lifting the boat and having a crack at fitting a reconditioned leg every few years. I'm ok with a set of spanners.... I don't have specific knowledge yet but I reckon I could manage it with the right equipment and manuals...

Fingers crossed for you, hope all goes well :encouragement: