Biodiesel

L

Lochaber

New Member
Joined
22 Jan 2006
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2
Location
West Coast of Scotland
www.lochaberwatersports.co.uk
I run a small sailing school/charter company on the West Coast of Scotland and am now beginning to realise that global warming may in fact be a serious problem.

I noted a greatly increased number of jellyfish last season - presumably due to warmer water - and we hardly saw any whales - presumably their food source has moved north into colder water.

We are taking delivery of a brand new Catalina 320 in March and to help a little with environmental issues I am considering running this boat solely on Biodiesel.

I am of course concerned on any possible adverse effect on the engine by using this fuel. Has anyone any experience of using this fuel in a marine environment?
 
Rule of thumb is using it in diesel engines that are pretty primitive will have no adverse effects. If you use it in diesel engines that have sophisticated computers or chips then you are looking for trouble, with a sliding scale between each end of the spectrum
 
you'd be doing more if you'd not bought new, production pollution and all that.
Have run single cylinder diesels, very basic and archiac, and they actually run smoother cleaner. Not tried in newer diesels but can see where Brendan is coming from.
On the subject of bio diesel, does it suffer from the bug same as the "normal" stuff?
 
I'll probably be in deep s**T for saying this but :-

biodiesel won't stop global warming (if it exists)
You can't get it easily in marinas
When you can, unless you have to dilute it with pump diesel or
It will invalidate you warranty.
You'd have to pay pump (taxed) price for it unless you can find a like minded tree hugging marina.
The production of biodisel is as bio friendly as a warfarin is good for a rat, it uses alchol to make it and leaves glycerin as as a waste product. Energy has to be expended in its production, more than for common diesel.
It is injurious to certain makes of injection pumps which need diesel to lubricate them.

you would probably be better running the engine on plain rapeseed oil which would give you problems cold starting but is more eco-friendly.but why take the risk of the extra cost, hassle worry that your engine will fail, customers stranded, customers filling your green machine with that nasty red diesel, and then your engine manufacturer cancels your warranty.

don't get me wrong I am very pro environment and take all possible measures to maintain and improve it, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Have a look at this site for info on alternative diesel
www.dieselsecret.com
 
Biodiesel will run well on most 'agricultural' engines. But many modern diesels have chip monitors which assess the engine oil and fuel constantly, and use the info as part of long life running regimes so you don't have to have services for 20 or 30k,. Introduce biodiesel into those in the first 20k, and you may have some interesting service intervals? What you do after the first 30k is up to you. but larger marine engines are going the same way, and it won't be long before all engine are monitored for oil and fuel quality

Yes, biodiesel is just as susceptible to bug as any other sort of diesel, it's just an organic meal to any bug of that sort
 
Welcome aboard Alec. If indeed it is you. I've posted this picture here before but thought you might enjoy it.

tn_sophiehair.jpg
 
First it depends on which Biodiesel .... second it depends what engine ..... third it depends how much energy you will have to expend to actually get it to your boat ....

a) Bio-diesel is not the simple "organic" material that many assume it to be. It varies considerably on which job it is intended to do. Bio-D ranges from high 90's% bio, down to single figures % bio. The remaining % being conventional diesel - often ULSD.
b) Many modern diesels especially in cars / trucks and gennys actually say do not use mod - high %age Bio-D .... some in fact say do not use Bio-D at all.
c) Having never seen a Bio-D pump at or near a marina .... you will have to probably expend more conventional energy than warranted to get the stuff to the boat - far exceeding any saving you make for environment.

Ok - onto serious stuff ... I would advise against such strategy - for various reasons - but one that will make a significant difference is that Bio-D suffers from Ester ... a difficult test that we have to carry out before it can be accepted for engine use. Many Bio-D's have to be "cut" with regular diesel to make them acceptable to most engines.

Nice thought but impracticle and actually counter-productive.

You'd probably be better using chip-pan oil and kero to be honest !!!! (*PLEASE* don't !!!!)
 
Interesting where he gets 100% Bio-D from ....

Must have a gander at his site ...

Personally - like a lot of things - fads ....
 
Sailing wild .... Bio-D .....

OK - now I know how he gets 100% Bio-D .....

In fact he is not using Commercial Bio-D ... he is using Recycled Veg-oil.

Companys such as xxxxxx import various components based on Rape-seed harvest and other over-production and refine to produce Bio-D base. This is then blended with normal diesel and a few other additives to produce "pump" Bio-D ....

I do not recall such companys collecting recycled Veg-oil to produce Bio-D ....
 
Re: Sailing wild .... Bio-D .....

No one seems to believe this, but I bought an L reg Vauxhall Fronterra 2.3 turbo deisel with over 100,000 mls on the clock a year ago and have been running it more than 50% of the time on supermarket vegetable oil straight into the tank. I only fill to half the tank at any one time, first with deisel and when it gets down towards empty, with straight veg oil for the next two fills.

I have had no trouble with cold starting, in fact it seems to run smoother, the only slight drawback is the smell of burned chip oil when you park. This seems to smell a bit better if run on sunflower oil.

If it had a catalitic converter I guess it wouldn't work or would get bunged up and I've got to put some injector cleaner through before MOT time but that's about it.

I'M NOT KIDDING, IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
environmental issues

Um, it might be of interest to get the environmental issues in perspective.

The primary use of energy regarding boats (and cars) is in manufacturing the item in the first place. This far exceeds the fuel they use.

So it's a bit late to start making environmental gestures having ordered the new boat, really. Of course, it's a nice gesture, but not a very effective one. And using biodiesel still has harmful effects (in fact probably more harmful environmental effects) than using fossil fuel.

In using biodiesel, all one is doing is being economical with petroleum oil (and the tax thereon) , which will run out one day or become a bit too expensive to extract, and then we'll use something else to warm things up to make ourselves comfy, or to manufacture things.

But it's the use of energy of any kind that is the issue of environmental concern.

And it is not alleviated in the slightest by using different fuel to power the same engines inside the same boats designed purely for entertainment, really. Sail or power, it's much the same energy to make a modern boat.

If you/everyone truly believed that environmental issues require control/reduction of energy use, then a much better start will be achieved if frinstance new boats and cars carried a 50% energy tax or praps even 100% or 200% energy tax which would dissuade people from chucking away things that are okay but a bit tatty. The same dissuasion should apply to anything that uses energy, like spoons and biros and clothes.

However, this would almost certainly muck up economic well-being of whichever country tried it, the govt would fall, and a new lower-tax party wd get elected. Hence not much chance of this. The best hope is world domination being achieved by some environmentally aware dictator, somehow, which is a bit unlikely.

Oh by the way, i don't follow this preaching myself, and am far more culpable energywise than many. Under the circumstances, it's a bit hypocritical of me to make the post. Okay, very hypocritical.

However, at least i know i'm a hypocrite. Lots don't. People buying new cars which use a teensy bit less fuel feel they are very virtuous, when they aren't in the slightest. Or some people drive their actually quite gigantic cars a bit slowly as if this helps the environment too. I'm afraid that buying a new boat and imagining that using biodiesel will help the planet falls into the same category - well meaning and utterly ineffective.

To save the planet, you should close your business. And the same goes for most other businesses too. Because although nobody dare really say it - abject poverty with universal subsistence farming will be absolutely great for the environment.

By contrast, working hard and expanding your business to have even more boats affordable by increasing number of people who might themselves then be tempted to buy a boat is just making things worse and worse, environmentally.

BUT i hope your new boat is nice, btw.
 
Re: Sailing wild .... Bio-D .....

Nigel,

I exchanged emails with the proprietor a little while ago. According to those, it is Bio Diesel from what he terms an "Authorised Supplier", which is a small scale operation in Findhorn. It is taxed as road fuel, and he reclaims the "excess" duty from C&E.

Apparently the red dye doesn't work in Biodiesel.

I shall find out for my own purposes whether this is real Biodiesel within the meaning of the act.

Tony S
 
Alternative strategies to \"help a little with environmental issues\".

I guess you will use 100 to 150 litres per year as it is really a sailing boat. Say just under 1-1.5 tonnes of diesel in ten years.

1. Have a wooden boat built locally rather than using 3 tonnes of resin derived from say 10 tonnes of oil to build something in the USA, and then shipping it over here.

2. Build with form stability rather than having a further 2 tonnes of iron or lead mined, refined, cast and carried 4,000 miles to Scotland. Not sure how much energy is required per tonne of finished keel.

3. Don't have an engine. Have a sail on sail off swinging mooring and a rowing boat to get out to it. Small diesels usually take more energy to build, distribute, maintain and de-commission than they ever burn in a lifetime.

4. Don't have expensive-to-maufacture and electricity-hungry instrumentation, heaters, fridges etc. Have basic instruments and solar panels. This saves producton-oil costs, and burning diesel to charge batteries to keep systems going.

5. Sell the RIB with 90hp Tohatsu on the back!

Every little helps!
 
Re: Sailing wild .... Bio-D .....

[ QUOTE ]
No one seems to believe this, but I bought an L reg Vauxhall Fronterra 2.3 turbo deisel with over 100,000 mls on the clock a year ago and have been running it more than 50% of the time on supermarket vegetable oil straight into the tank. I only fill to half the tank at any one time, first with deisel and when it gets down towards empty, with straight veg oil for the next two fills.

[/ QUOTE ]

For God's sake, don't let Customs & Excise find out!
/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

BTW, with regards to other posters stating bio-diesel isn't eco-friendly it is my understanding it is as it is 'carbon-neutral'. The carbon you burn was previously in the atmospere only recently. Burning fossil fuels releases carbon that has been locked away for millions of years.
 
Re: Sailing wild .... Bio-D .....

It may be classed as Bio-D by the seller ... and as the authorities rulings are pretty vague across the spectrum - but hard on tax / duties - it may well be classed as Bio-D as they see it.

It is not Bio-D as we test and see exported out .... which funny enough ends up mostly in UK for blending .....

It has to be noted that the Bio-D market is small and only recently really come under control.

Shame he has to pay duty on it .... seeing as its probably similar to anyone else can make if they have the "know-how" ....
 
Re: Sailing wild .... Bio-D .....

I'll see what the producer says. It may just mean that he meets C&E's definition of Biodiesel to qualify for the lower duty rate. As opposed to just tipping vegetable oil into the fuel tank and being liable for the full whack.

Tony S
 
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