Bilges full of oil... oh ****!

[Firefly625]

Went down to Hamble on Saturday... I think the 4th weekend in a row, all antifouling already done, polished hull and topsides last week so quite looking forward to a couple of hours messing about. Fitted my new snap davits on transom, checked battery water levels, tightened stern glade, and while my head and half my body was wedged in the small confines of my engine bay finally emptied the last remaining cup of water from the bilges under the stern glade and generally feeling quite pleased with myself. But then, having been using a halogen lamp in the engine bay I just flashed it back under the engine to have a check around and caught a strange reflection. Under the gearbox there is a beam across the bilges effectively sectioning the bilges off so water....and oil, does not flow from one part to another. The section of bilges directly under the engine and the first half of the gearbox which I could only just see a tiny section of seemed brimming with dark liquid...

So I stuck my siphoning pump down under gearbox and into that forward part of the engine bilges and started pumping out into a bucket. I recon I got around 4 litres of automatic transmission fluid out.... my ZF gearbox takes 4 litres of ATF... I cannot check the gearbox oil level easily until I start and run the engine to build up oil pressure.. dip stick shows empty until then... and that is what it shows now. So with the boat out the water I will have to remove gearbox oil filter and pump out whatever oil is left in the gearbox to see how much/little is in there. Best case scenario is its still full and the people who serviced the engine and gearbox and fitted a new gearbox oil cooler in November simply drained all the old oil straight into the bilges.... somehow I doubt it.

.... so I am assuming for some reason my gearbox has developed an almighty leak. Oh joy.

 

[benjenbav]

If it's drained out whilst not under load then perhaps the peeps who fitted the oil cooler didn't refit the gearbox sump or o ring back properly or, if there is a drain plug on that gearbox, didn't fit that back properly.

I think if I found a pool of oil which had appeared between an engineer having worked on the gearbox and before I used the boat again after the engineer's visit I would be on the phone to said engineer sharpish.

 

[omega2]

If the ATF is off the stick, then I reckon you have a leak. ZF replace Borg warner I believe,

I would expect see something on the stick with the box cold. The method for checking is as you say run engine up to warm, and stop, check gearbox oil within a minute, this shows oil level before the oil cooler has dumped it's amount back into the box. So if cooler is empty, then box should show overfull.

 

[lovezoo]

Of course, if you had one of those horrible soap dish boats with a trouble prone outdrive on it, you could just look at the remote gear lube monitor and see at a glance how much oil is in the outdrive. (runs for cover)

 

[omega2]

Of course, if you had one of those horrible soap dish boats with a trouble prone outdrive on it, you could just look at the remote gear lube monitor and see at a glance how much oil is in the outdrive. (runs for cover)

we are talking boats here go away!!

 

[Firefly625]

update

...well, called Marine Power this morning and I guess i came off the phone with more work and more concerns than I started..

I explained the issue, and the chap at Marine Power observed that it may have been there for a while, so possibly a historic issue with previous owner...and the cause of why I needed a new oil cooler. (which was discovered on sea trial as noted gearbox oil level was low, so sent an oil sample off for analysis and showed traces of water in the oil, hence the need for new oil cooler)

He then asked if I had winterised the engine...... mmm well no I hadn't. I do have a bar heater fitted in the engine bay, a 3 foot bar heater fitted in the cabin and a fan heater on a frost setting in the wheel house with the engine cover open by 2".... that is kind of as far as I went with winterising... apart from having the engine serviced and filling the fuel tank prior to lift out.

There is no sign the new gearbox oil cooler has any issue. There is no sign of any oil having drained down the side of the gearbox, or by feel any oil on the underside of the gearbox. MP explained they would have pumped the oil out from the gearbox and taken it away with them.

So as I had run out of time on Saturday to delve deeper into the issue I will have to take a day out this week to draw out whatever oil is left in the gearbox and measure how much there is... if full no issue. If empty....... God knows.

 

[omega2]

you do not say which model box you have but this may help us, take a look.

http://yanmarhelp.com/i_box2.htm

 

[omega2]

another excerpt from Mercruiser

Checking While the Engine is Warm
1. Velvet Drive Transmissions ‑ Stop engine and quickly check fluid level by turning
T‑handle counterclockwise, to remove dipstick. Fluid level should be up to full mark. If
low, add specified fluid through dipstick tube on transmissions.
Section 5 - Maintenance
90-864841070 OCTOBER 2007 Page 57
2. ZF Marine Transmissions ‑ Stop engine and remove dipstick to check level. If fluid is
below top (Full) line, add specified fluid through dipstick hole. Do not overfill. Reinstall
dipstick with cap fully seated.
Checking While Engine is Cold
NOTE: Cold Fluid Level Check: To ease checking the fluid level, the dipstick can be marked
or scribed with a cold level mark.
1. Follow the procedure for the warm fluid level check, then allow the boat to sit overnight.
IMPORTANT: Be sure to push the dipstick all the way down into the dipstick tube when
checking the fluid level.
2. Remove the dipstick, wipe clean and reinsert.
3. Remove the dipstick, observe the fluid level and mark the cold fluid level.
4. Reinstall the dipstick, tighten the T‑handle securely. Do not overtighten.

 

[Firefly625]

omega2, thank you for all your help. The gearbox is the ZF Hurth HSW 630A1

I am a just a tad concerned that there is nil on the dip stick and I can't for the life of me recall previously checking when cold if there was any on there, as I always followed the guide or running engine and switching off and checking.

 

[omega2]

On our AQUABELL there is a rib separating the engine bay from the next aft compartment, and thence down into the depths of the bilge, but the clever aquabell people put a 1/2 inch hole in the lowest part of that rib, so that "all" the bays drain, when under way. We clear the hole from time to time, cos it gets blocked with bits of engine, and fan belt. Any oil leak is easily detected when the bilge pump comes on. As you can see we do not use "nappies" to soak up the muck. I reckon that there is no oil in your box or if there is it is very very low, it should be higher up the stick when cold.

 

[volvopaul]

omega2, thank you for all your help. The gearbox is the ZF Hurth HSW 630A1

I am a just a tad concerned that there is nil on the dip stick and I can't for the life of me recall previously checking when cold if there was any on there, as I always followed the guide or running engine and switching off and checking.

If there is no oil on the stick at cold and engine shut down then fill it before you cause any damage!, if the cooler had spit due to frost damage the oil would exit with the raw water as oil pressure is greater than the water flow pressure, is there any red oil in the cooling water/exhaust outlet.

If marinepower had done work on it they should have cleaned out the bilges after so that they can recognise any further problems.

The hs63 can be prone to leaks a sit a closed breather type box, you should get air escaping under pressure when you unscrew the dipstick? in my experience this always occurs.

 

[Firefly625]

I if the cooler had spit due to frost damage the oil would exit with the raw water as oil pressure is greater than the water flow pressure, is there any red oil in the cooling water/exhaust outlet.

Firstly thanks for expert feedback, there is absolutely no sign the oil cooler has split externally, there is no oil or water in exhaust outlet.

If marinepower had done work on it they should have cleaned out the bilges after so that they can recognise any further problems.

mmmm, yes they should.... but in there defence the separate bilges compartment under the engine is totally shielded from view by the gearbox & engine, just beyond the gearbox there is clear view of the bilges so they may well have considered that area clear and therefore no need to clear up anything else.

The hs63 can be prone to leaks a sit a closed breather type box, you should get air escaping under pressure when you unscrew the dipstick? in my experience this always occurs.

..oh great. well I don't think I did get any air escaping when I unscrewed dip stick.. the odd thing is I have been checking gearbox oil level when I was using the boat & its been fine, now its been out the water and not used for 3 months all the oil has decided to leave the gearbox just seems odd. I plan to go and take the dip stick out and with a pipe attached to a 500ml fork oil syringe pull out whatever oil is left in there and measure it. I just hope I find 4.5 liters!!

 

[omega2]

Paul his oil is in the bilge, either Marine power did not clean up, or as you say he has a cooler core problem.

 

[Firefly625]

An update if you are interested...

Back down to Hamble yesterday afternoon equipped with an extendible mirror, filled the gearbox with oil and eventually found it leaking from the output flange seal. Contacted Volvopaul of this parish and with luck and a following wind in the near future the gearbox will be out and in his workshop to be fixed.

These problems are sent to try us, but the help of the right person at the right time does make the problem more manageable!

The rusty mess that is the output flange probable cause of the leak with rust being drawn into the seal... Now if this had been my boat from new it wouldn't have ever been left to get to this state, therefore this would not have occured. Just shows the benefit of looking after what you have! It was on my list of jobs for the new season..

 

[oGaryo]

at least you've found the definite root cause and can do something about it before the weather warms... good luck, hope it's not too painful on the back pocket

 

[omega2]

coupling

Looks like that coupling is toast, hope you are able to recover it, better look at the other one as well. Knock the loose rust off and treat with cure rust then paint it, and keep an eye on them from now on. Happy you found the cause.

 

[Firefly625]

Looks like that coupling is toast, hope you are able to recover it, better look at the other one as well. Knock the loose rust off and treat with cure rust then paint it, and keep an eye on them from now on. Happy you found the cause.

Thanks, but I've only got the one... that's why it needs to be right! & yes, the coupling is toast, bolts will need grinding off to get apart, what happens from there is down to Volvopaul, but I want it right.

 

[omega2]

Thanks, but I've only got the one... that's why it needs to be right! & yes, the coupling is toast, bolts will need grinding off to get apart, what happens from there is down to Volvopaul, but I want it right.

When we replaced our shafts, our couplings were in that state, and we had a right job to remove from the shafts, in the end we cut the shafts seeing as they were knackered and had new shafts and couplings. Clements marine made ours. Since then we inspect often. looking at the picture you do not appear to have any sort of anti vibration damper between the coupling and the gearbox which is surprising, I would have thought an R&D joint would help. Mention it to Paul. If I recall you had a bad prop as well that is what probably caused the seal to fail, due to vibration.

 

[Firefly625]

When we replaced our shafts, our couplings were in that state, and we had a right job to remove from the shafts, in the end we cut the shafts seeing as they were knackered and had new shafts and couplings. Clements marine made ours. Since then we inspect often. looking at the picture you do not appear to have any sort of anti vibration damper between the coupling and the gearbox which is surprising, I would have thought an R&D joint would help. Mention it to Paul. If I recall you had a bad prop as well that is what probably caused the seal to fail, due to vibration.

.... all things that have been going through my mind. an R&D joint would certainly be nice to have.. but then that would mean a new prop shaft... and yes, I did have a prop issue... was that the cause? well it wouldn't have helped!

... don't you just love boats.....

 

[omega2]

.... all things that have been going through my mind. an R&D joint would certainly be nice to have.. but then that would mean a new prop shaft... and yes, I did have a prop issue... was that the cause? well it wouldn't have helped!

... don't you just love boats.....

Not definate a new shaft required, the old coupling will have to be removed, this could be on a taper or a keyway or both, you will not know until it's off. check the cutlass bearing by up/down movement on the prop, if there is little or no movement then the bearing should be ok. if not then that will need a new one too. In which case the shaft may have to come out to do that job, and while it's out it can be altered to accomodate a R&D, in our experience though if the shaft has been rattling around in the bearings then it will be worn, the way to get around this problem is to turn the shaft around, most are made with tapers at both ends. So there you have it, I would not go for a quick fix as it is bound to bite your bum later. The engineering firm I mentioned before will be able to assist you.