Bilge vs Fin Keel

[tatali0n]

I reckon a good reliable engine that can push the boat comfortably along when the wind fails is probably a bigger factor than the configuration of the keel. And I hate motoring.

Given the choice, I'd have probably gone for a fin for whatever small margin of performance that might have given us over the bilge keel of our Griffon. But Dad, who to be fair was the one buying the boat, over-ruled me.

I think his original reasons were because of all the green and yellow you see on the charts around here. He had it in his then still "Bristol Channel innocent" mind that if you got caught on a sandbank you were better off doing it in a boat that would stay stood up. I don't know that this was necessarily sound logic; the trick around here is to definitely NOT get caught on any rogue sandbanks. The way that tide comes in most days, taking it stood up or lying down probably doesn't make much difference.

In practice, I've not hit a sandbank yet. Any performance deficit is probably as much the fault of an 80's family cruising hull and blown sails as it is the fault of the keels.

However, the shoal draft has been a real advantage at times. And it is an absolute, unmitigated charm being able to nudge into Ilfracombe's outer harbour, pick up a mooring and just step off the boat onto hard sand once the tide has run out. Although I think I've now reassured Dad that I can keep us off the accidental sandbanks, he'd still insist on sticking with bilge keels for the sake of Ilfracombe alone.

It does strike me that in three years of bobbing around the general area, Ilfracombe and Porlock are the only places we've actually dried out onto our keels. Everywhere else we've so far remained afloat.

We're not adverse to starting the engine to make the tide, and as a result have generally only ever missed it intentionally when I've persuaded Dad to let me carry on sailing regardless. But on the odd occasion we've ended up sat outside Porlock or Ifracombe having arrived on the ebb from up channel, it's never been a particularly long wait for enough water to flood back so we can get in.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

If you are sailing on the welsh side there are Cardiff and Barry you can get into any state of the tide, and anchoring off in Swansea while awaiting the lock or anchoring and rowing ashore in Oxwich is possible. A fin keeler can also visit Tenby by leaning against the harbour wall.

If you are sailing on the English side there are simply no harbours you can get in at all states of the tide. There are 4 harbours or marinas you can stay afloat in or sunk into mud, and you can lean against the harbour wall in Minehead, Ilfracombe and St Ives.

If you want to visit the small creeks and harbours of the Bristol Chanel (and Scilly Isles) you need a bilge keeler. You can theoretically dry out a fin or long keeler on legs but in the strong tides of the Bristol Chanel there are few sheltered places where I would be happy doing that.

Fin keels are faster and better to windward but many racers often don't cruise, so it depends what you want the boat for. My navigator likes the pubs, teashops, walks ashore and sailors talk in the local sailing clubs. I like drying out in old harbours to check hull and prop or even painting antifouling without needing a crane.

 

[Dutch01527]

Thanks for all the advice. I have just agreed a deal on a new boat, a Dehler Duetta 86 with a shallow 1.5m fin keel and a 20hp engine. I will add beaching legs.

Not sure if it is the right choice given all the differing advice but my logic is:
1) I found a boat I liked
2) Shallow enough draft that with the addition of beaching legs it will give most of the advantages of a bilge keeler in that it can dry out for overnight stays in sheltered places
3) Pretty good sailing performance
4) Big engine for the size of boat to push last of hour or two of tide if needed
5) Easy to sail short handed with self tacking jib
5) Most importantly my wife liked the layout and finish

Anyone know the model?

 

[bitbaltic]

Thanks for all the advice. I have just agreed a deal on a new boat, a Dehler Duetta 86 with a shallow 1.5m fin keel and a 20hp engine. I will add beaching legs.

Not sure if it is the right choice given all the differing advice but my logic is:
1) I found a boat I liked
2) Shallow enough draft that with the addition of beaching legs it will give most of the advantages of a bilge keeler in that it can dry out for overnight stays in sheltered places
3) Pretty good sailing performance
4) Big engine for the size of boat to push last of hour or two of tide if needed
5) Easy to sail short handed with self tacking jib
5) Most importantly my wife liked the layout and finish

Anyone know the model?

Congratulations! Something like this? (apparently there are three variants): http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/dehler-duetta-86as/duetta-86as.htm

Don't worry about being the right choice, if it's the right boat for you then it's the right choice It will certainly handle the channel and looks comfy in port. A big engine is a plus! Enjoy!

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Thanks for all the advice. I have just agreed a deal on a new boat, a Dehler Duetta 86 with a shallow 1.5m fin keel and a 20hp engine. I will add beaching legs.

Not sure if it is the right choice given all the differing advice but my logic is:
1) I found a boat I liked
2) Shallow enough draft that with the addition of beaching legs it will give most of the advantages of a bilge keeler in that it can dry out for overnight stays in sheltered places
3) Pretty good sailing performance
4) Big engine for the size of boat to push last of hour or two of tide if needed
5) Easy to sail short handed with self tacking jib
5) Most importantly my wife liked the layout and finish

Anyone know the model?

Good luck - seems a nice boat. Take no notice of pessimists limiting you to the Welsh coast, you can still get to Watchet if you are cunning, and can certainly get back on one rising tide. As for Ilfracombe, you would get to Foreland about when the tide turned then sneak against the tide and get the rising tide into the harbour. Just get yourself a decent anchor if you plan to anchor off or dry out in the more exposed places not one of these silly plough thingies.

 

[bitbaltic]

Seems also to be an aft cockpit version made: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4288

 

[Dutch01527]

Congratulations! Something like this? (apparently there are three variants): http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/dehler-duetta-86as/duetta-86as.htm

Don't worry about being the right choice, if it's the right boat for you then it's the right choice It will certainly handle the channel and looks comfy in port. A big engine is a plus! Enjoy!

Yes, that is actually the boat I am buying, not an example, the actual boat. A bit of a unusual layout with no fore cabin, an aft cabin and a huge anchor locker which I was originally sceptical about but I think that there maybe some advantages of being able to store tender, outboard, tools, sails ect out of sight and keep the main cabin neat and tidy when for 95% of the time there are only two of us on board.

Tread master and top side stripe paint is a bit ropey but that is fixable.

There is almost no information online about performance but the stats and hull shape look pretty good so I am hopefull that she performs reasonably.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Humm yes it looks like a most apt choice of vessel, I like the Motor Sailer capacity, fitted with a decent size engine that will extend ones range and weather conditions' the cabin layout looks great, most apt if hosting others on board so offering a cabin each or using the aft cabin for sleeping /dressing in and the main cabin for day time usage.

A most excellent choice kind Sir /Madam

 

[Dutch01527]

Just get yourself a decent anchor if you plan to anchor off or dry out in the more exposed places not one of these silly plough thingies.

Any thought on the best anchor for the channel.

The boat has a decent sized danforth and I also have a 25lb QCR. Both with 10m chain and 50m rode but not sure which would be best suited.

 

[bitbaltic]

Any thought on the best anchor for the channel.

The boat has a decent sized danforth and I also have a 25lb QCR. Both with 10m chain and 50m rode but not sure which would be best suited.

You're going to need more chain, I wouldn't worry too much about the anchor. See how the CQR goes before you spend any money on an alternative, it is certainly big enough to be a best bower. The Danforth is possibly the kedge (unless it was the only anchor the boat came with?) and may be much easier to handle for lunchtime stops. Anchor threads are infamous on this forum and you will get any number of suggestions. Gernerally speaking "new generation" anchors claim better holding power per kg and if the CQR proves too heavy to handle you might then look at an alternative.

As you have a big anchor locker on the boat I'd be looking at more like 30 or 40m of chain and your 50m rode. You need the weight and inertia of that to help whichever anchor in the big tides of the channel.

In the first instance though you aren't going to be using the anchor much if you shake down with some daysails from Cardiff and say trips to Watchet and Portishead. You could try anchoring behind Sully Island to see how the gear goes.

 

[jwilson]

When I sailed in the Bristol Channel (fairly extensively and widely) a Danforth with just a small amount of chain and LOTS of warp was the best thing for almost everywhere (mainly except the shingly patches off Porlock where a Fisherman worked better than either the Danforth or a CQR). I did sometimes lower a weight down the warp as well. Chain's OK too but not so much that you weigh the bow down when sailing.

 

[SteveSarabande]

I used a 22lb cqr when I sailed out of Cardiff. With 36m of chain and 50m of rope if needed. It worked fine. My favourite daysail was around the Holmes, you can anchor behind steepholm. The islands have some interesting military features.

I also anchored at Minehead a lot, there is a white paint mark on the cliffs just west of Minehead to mark the spot.

 

[Graham_Wright]

Legs. If you go for them, make sure they are fit for the job. We once dried out in Ilfracombe close to a classic open stern boat. As the tide dropped, he rigged legs which, to me, looked brand new but softwood. Ilfracombe (then) had a thin layer of mud over the sand. As the tide receded, the legs sank in a bit, then a bit more and it was obvious the angle was wrong with the leg bottom ends too near the keel. Sure enough, she slowly capsized rolling onto the downside leg.

Writing this now, many, many years later, the hairs on the back of my neck are rising. The noises as the boat rolled over, the shaking of the mast, the cracking and the reverberations which seemed to go on and on are something I will never forget.

Amazingly, a surveyor arrived very promptly and, after a thorough inspection, declared the hull was sound. However, with an open cockpit and very low freeboard, refloating was uncertain. A quick round-up in the harbour produced an impressive collection of fenders and inflatables and, to large cheers, she lifted with the returning tide.

Legs (and bottom) need to be chosen with care!

 

[Dutch01527]

I have bought a 28 foot Dehler with a 1.5m draft shallow fin keel. I am planning to fit legs from the Yacht Legs company who have a good reputation. I think that the combination will work well. Decent sailing performance, better internal fit out than many of the British design bilge keelers, good price and the ability to dry out.

Time will tell if those choices are wise.

 

[wotayottie]

I had been getting conflicting advice about whether a bilge keel yacht is the best option to base out of Cardiff. I had assumed a bilge keel boat would be most suitable given the drying harbours in the area. We will primarily weekend cruising i.e: sail in day from Cardiff and pub/dinner/sleep in destination. Return the following day. Boat length c. 30 to 35 feet when we upgrade.

A number of yacht club members have said that they prefer a faster fin keel and anchoring off harbours like Porlock Weir or Clovelly and going ashore with a good tender / outboard. That seems to make sense now that I am starting to understand the tidal challenges a bit better

Would a fin keel and choosing destinations dependant on wind direction ( Warchet / Portishead marinas if weather is a little heavy / anchor off smaller drying harbours if conditions are light) be a valid strategy?

Over 30 years of sailing in the Bristol channel I have had both types and including a cat.

If you arent venturing outside the channel then a bilge makes most sense. Few people bash to windward for hours on end when cruising and its only to windward that the fin wins out. Even then its mostly pointing angle rather than speed through the water unless, that is, you are comparing a Benny First with say a Sadler 29.

The two port examples you quote arent good ones. You will struggle to get a 30-35ft boat into Porlock at all and the quay wall at Clovelly isnt a good one and to be avoided whatever keel. Nothing there anyway. Much more important is Ilfracombe. Trying to get a fin down channel and unable to go into Combe is a real PITA. Any sort of decent draught means drying against a wall in Combe and that is feasible but not much fun. Anchoring in the range leaves me effectively outside the harbour in the channel. And since you need an easterly for a comfortable passage down channel then Lundy is out. Sure none of my comments are unarguable except to say that a fin out of Cardiff is very limiting.

You can always turn left out of Cardiff. With a bilge, Chepstow, Newport, Thornbury etc are accessible. You can dry out in Newport. There's Minehead and Combe. None of that list are easy with a fin

 

[DHV90]

You can always turn left out of Cardiff. With a bilge, Chepstow, Newport, Thornbury etc are accessible. You can dry out in Newport. There's Minehead and Combe. None of that list are easy with a fin

Fins can sit in the mud in chepstow newport and thornbury?

Also Combe martin is a great anchorage alternative to ilfracombe. way better in many ways with lots of little different areas of shelter within the bay to optimise protection from different wind directions

 

[TOKOLOSHI]

St Pierre Pill has deep mud on the Clubside Hammerhead 38 footer fin visits regularly and dries out upright! Up to 8-10 foot of mud at times.

 

[wotayottie]

Fins can sit in the mud in chepstow newport and thornbury?

Also Combe martin is a great anchorage alternative to ilfracombe. way better in many ways with lots of little different areas of shelter within the bay to optimise protection from different wind directions

Thornbury really? When I used to go there, there was a fin keeler on the outermost mooring but no way was there enough mud where visitors lie. Same for Chepstow though there the mud is a moveable feast - Ive see it when fins only went a foot into the bottom on whats laughingly called the club house side. And in Newport the only area for fins is in amongst the boats in the pill.

The real point is that cruising life from Cardiff is far easier in a bilge not that its impossible in a fin. My current boat is a fin and previous ones have been bilge. In contrast for a cruiser the speed advantage of a fin is small. When I used to race my bilge against J 24 etc I used to reckon that the disadvantage was about 5 deg of pointing. Looking at it another way the Byron handicaps suggest a 6% average speed difference whilst the old RYA adjustments to the PY handicaps make it 5%. Both those assume a course which involved beating hard on the wind as well as offwind sailing. Most cruisers avoid long beats so the real world speed difference is way less than 6%. In an 8 hour sail, 6% is 30 mins

 

[TOKOLOSHI]

10 ft not enough? like I said it does vary and shallows to the stream that runs through the Pill! And a fig to your snide remark re Clubhouse side! We may lack facilities but we make up for that with a welcome to any visitors.:encouragement:

 

[bitbaltic]

We may lack facilities but we make up for that with a welcome to any visitors.:encouragement:

Well said.