Bilge pumps

zoidberg

zoidberg

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The difference between what's wanted and what's needed......

Take a 27-footer with a deep bilge, displacing about 7000lbs/3450kg MAUW.
I certainly want a modest manual bilge pump, so I can tell 'by strokes' whether things are still the same, and a decent electrical job I can switch on if there's ocean dribbling-in somewhere it shouldn't. But what else?

I have a couple of Patay DD120Cs, one of which will probably find its way aboard. And I have some bungs and buckets.....

But what else?
 
Your boat seems very well-equipped.

I just have two of these Whale brass pumps:

whale brass pump.jpg

Originally the boat only had one but the extra one was fitted for an AZAB Race and is operated from inside the cabin.
 
The ergonomics of another manual pump setup are probably as important as the choice of make. It should be able to moved from ''ready-use' locker to operational position, and secured so that you can operate it steadily L or R handed for a long time, in case of a persistent problem.

That means having the pump handle either vertical or horizontal so you can put body weight behind it, rather than just relying only on arm muscles at an odd angle. I have seen a pump clamped temporarily with big wing nuts to the steps from the cabin to the cockpit which seems a good working height and handiness if you are below.

Siting the delivery hose also needs a bit of thought to avoid having to leave the hatch open. Lead it under the deck to an outlet in the cockpit ? Quick connectors for the hoses ? Also being able to clean the suction strum box without dismantling the furniture...

As for another electric one... Given your battery reserves and continuing charging being available, would one with pre-installed Anderson connectors on a wander lead be useful ? Ending up wit a longish suction hose you can poke into various main or subsidiary parts of the bilges (inc the for'd cabin) . Needs to be an automatic one so that you set it going, leave it, and then concentrate on making the bacon butties.

It's almost as if your contingency pumping could be a sort of ring main of electric wiring and delivery hose with quick connectors, arranged so that you can use a manual or electric pump in any part of the boat, leading to a delivery pipe that doesn't need. moving the whole time.

Quick connect fittings - background...

https://www.actionsealtite.com/ultim...mlock-fittings

https://www.camlockcoupling.org/

Some nice plastic ones in the last link.
 
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sarabande said:
It's almost as if your contingency pumping could be a sort of ring main of electric wiring and delivery hose with quick connectors, arranged so that you can use a manual or electric pump in any part of the boat, leading to a delivery pipe that doesn't need. moving the whole time.
Click to expand...

Assuming a conventional small yacht without watertight compartments. If things are serious enough to need your emergency pumping capacity, it doesn’t matter a great deal where the suction intake is and you certainly don’t need to move it around. Anywhere below knee height will be fine.

(That’s for the intake. Obviously the ergonomics of locating a manual pump itself are important, as SB says, and it might well need to be demountable to free up what’s probably critical space for other uses in time of peace.)

Pete
 
The Spanish authorities required I carried in my 40 footer four galvanized buckets one with 27.5 meters of rope attached they obviously know a lot about leaking ships!
 
Twice I have been on boats with a major ingress of water.

Once a wooden boat when a long split opened up along the stem and under the forefoot, secondtime a sailing yacht when the rudder fell out.

A chum of mine had a P Bracket break and the prop mashed its way up through the hull. He observed that after a few frantic minutes with a whale type pump the crew were knackered!

Strikes me, after those experiences above, that a bilge pump might lift out a little rain or spray, or perhaps a weeping fitting, but if you spring a significant leak bilge pumps are not much use!
 
If thinking electric I'd avoid those automatic pumps that have a sensor rather than a float switch. Any oil in the bilges, be it engine, diesel or even olive, coats the sensor and then the thing won't work until it has been cleaned.
 
I have two wale Gushers. One operated in the cockpit, convenient for helm position, the other below the companionway steps, useful for "down below crew".

In 2015 heading from Wicklow Head to Arklow in a horrible short steep sea which swept continually over the decks, "something went wrong". The cabin floor was about six inches deep with everything swilling about.
I was single-handing so I started to use the cockpit pump.
450 strokes had the sole boards dry, and the bilges empty.
I was totally knackered.
As I was motoring into the seas I could have used the electric pump to augment the Gusher, but it (electric pump) could not have coped by itself - even if it had been working.
I suspect some oil in the bilges had made it fail, as posted above.
 
prv said:
Assuming a conventional small yacht without watertight compartments.

Pete
Click to expand...

Wateright compartments are a great idea but lead to a bilge pump for each! I have eight!

In my defence - the sail locker in the forepeak is the defence against submerged objects.
The heads is next with the shower bilge drain.
Next is the saloon for the big one.
Then the galley sump for any gas leakage (the Nick 55s used to do that)
Then the deep locker in the cockpit which acts as a grey water tank from the galley
Next the engine space.
Next the aft chain locker with the pump in the skeg.
Those are all electric.
There is also one manual pump which can connect to the heads or the saloon by valve operation.

Stand by for criticism!

I nearly forgot. There is also a macerator for the black water tank.
 
Graham_Wright said:
Wateright compartments are a great idea but lead to a bilge pump for each! I have eight!
Click to expand...

You’d want a small dewatering pump in each, but for crash pumps it’s more normal to have one and a manifold system to apply it to whichever compartment is holed.

For a small saving in valves, I’ve also seen it done with a 3” or 4” hard pipe to each bilge all running to a central point and ending with a quick-connect fitting, and a short length of hose on the crash pump that could be coupled to whichever pipe.

Pete
 
Graham_Wright said:
Then the galley sump for any gas leakage (the Nick 55s used to do that)..... Those are all electric.

Stand by for criticism!
Click to expand...

It may be remembered that a Services Nicholson 55, 'Lord Trenchard', exploded while alongside Poole Town Quay, due to an LPG gas accumulation and an electric spark coinciding. That blew off much of the back end of the boat, together with major injuries to the skipper's legs AIR.

While it is a common presumption among yotties that operation of a bilge pump - either hand or electric operation - is effective in removing LPG gas accumulations, the technical experts at Southampton Calor Centre describe that as 'a waste of time'. Using an electric pump in that role is 'like testing for a minefield by putting your fingers in your ears and stamping on the ground'.
The MAIB report into the accident bears careful reading and pondering.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c717be5274a429000013b/lord_trenchard.pdf

I checked through a large Moody prior to a delivery passage and found the HP regulator so corroded it could be removed one-handed. The gas locker drain outlets were solid-blocked, and through-bulkhead holes for gas piping and electrical cable runs were open/unsealed. There was a gas stink throughout the boat. Another boat I visited recently on the hard had a gas alarm 'howl' as soon as electrical power was supplied. The owner's reaction was to turn off the alarm. He later fitted a new bottle to regulator hose, winding the joint as tight as a pair of long-handled Stilsons could make it - despite being advised that was likely to rupture the threads and initiate a gas leak.

I'm one of those weebly types who believes the consequences of an LPG gas leak likely to be so severe that it's worth paying for professional installation and annual inspection.... as the Code requires.
 
zoidberg said:
....

I'm one of those weebly types who believes the consequences of an LPG gas leak likely to be so severe that it's worth paying for professional installation and annual inspection.... as the Code requires.
Click to expand...
Was the Trenchard's gas system fitted by an amateur?
 
I have one of those hand-held, battery operated gas "pens".
I use it every time I turn on the gas (at the bottle in the gas locker), every time I turn on the main tap beside the cooker, and every time just before I ignite a burner on/in the cooker.
It's extremely sensitive.
If I have used the cooker I always check the bilges too.

Well that's what I do when I don't forget - which isn't very often...………:(
 
If you are going to have install an automatic electric bilge pump you need some way to count the number of cycles so that if you do have water coming in you can determine if the leak is getting worse. I have an electromechanical counter that can be reset each time I leave m boat.

By local regulations I mus have a hand bilge pump that can be operated from my steering station.

I have 2 other hand bilge pumps (henderson Mk V) that can be operated at the same time while being seated.

I also have 2 electric bilge that can be manual or automatic with counters. a 3rd bilge pump in my sealed stern locker.

The regs used to require 2 heavy duty buckets buy this has been dispensed with
 
With all the potential hasstle of gas on board, I’ve used Origo Spirit stoves on all my boats for the last 30 years.
They use either Meths or bio- ethanol, are only marginally less efficient than a gas cooker and seem to be fairly economical and the meths has so many odd uses around the boat.
I was surprised how tiring pumping away on a bilge pump can be, we had to pump the deep bilge on my last boat when the 30 year old stern gland packing decided to give up the ghost in the middle of the Irish Sea (my fault I kept meaning to change it).
My current boat has two manual pumps both accessible in the cockpit and one electric which is either automatic via a float switch or can be switched on manually.
 
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Rogershaw said:
If you are going to have install an automatic electric bilge pump you need some way to count the number of cycles so that if you do have water coming in you can determine if the leak is getting worse. I have an electromechanical counter that can be reset each time I leave m boat.
Click to expand...

I have a Celectron but it doesn't record pumping lasting less than around 70 seconds. As the pumps don't normally run that long on auto, its usefulness is questionable.
 
lw395 said:
Was the Trenchard's gas system fitted by an amateur?
Click to expand...

I don't really know. I wasn't there.... but I sailed on her, twice, in the early 70s. Her then skipper, Sqn Ldr John Reeve ( who did the 'check-outs' for RAF Skippers and Mates tickets then, and who was centrally involved in the genesis of both the RYA's National Training Scheme and the RIN's Small Craft Group ) taught me the real hazards of LPG gas on board AND the then-state of the art' gas safety systems installed in the Services' boats. That became the standard I aspired to for years, until I heard of the explosion in 'Trenchard', in 1999.

Then read the MAIB report....
 
I think the myth of bilge pumps being useful for gas safety is largely about boats with surplus crew who need to be given something to do.
 
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