webcraft
Well-Known Member
So the new Attwood pump runs fine...
- W
- W
Last edited:
Bilge pump - the saga continues
- Thread starter webcraft
- Start date
webcraft
Well-Known Member
So the new Attwood pump runs fine on the manual setting and the 3A fuse in the auto/off/manual switch does not blow.
However, when it is on auto and the Whale electronic sensor
Whale Electric Field Sensor Bilge Pump Switch BE9003
is activated the pump initially starts up normally, but after 1 - 2 seconds it starts to run slow and rough.
Is the Whale sensor knackered, or could it be a fault in the panel switch? How do I tell?
(I suspect this might be what has damaged the old pump...)
- W
However, when it is on auto and the Whale electronic sensor
Whale Electric Field Sensor Bilge Pump Switch BE9003
is activated the pump initially starts up normally, but after 1 - 2 seconds it starts to run slow and rough.
Is the Whale sensor knackered, or could it be a fault in the panel switch? How do I tell?
(I suspect this might be what has damaged the old pump...)
- W
sarabande
Well-Known Member
Have you got an oscillograph on your smart phone ? That would be useful to check the control signal/output from the sensor to the pump.
Even a simple multimeter might be able to see if the voltage to the pump is below spec.
Even a simple multimeter might be able to see if the voltage to the pump is below spec.
webcraft
Well-Known Member
Do you mean, check the voltage going to the pump when the electronic field sensor is running the pump?
I am an electric idiot, but I can't think of any other reason the pump would run slow and rough on auto but OK on manual.
Unless it is the panel switch. So testing the voltage at the pump wouldn't point me at the culprit?
(And I am not sure exactly where to meter across... presumably the live (+ve) from the switch and the - ve to the pump?)
I have no idea how these field sensor switches work... It's just a magic box. Can/do they go wrong?
- W
cpedw
Well-Known Member
I'm sure they can go wrong but I have no idea if these are prone to faiure or not.
I would suggest the following tests with the multimeter. All with the black multimeter lead on the negative supply.
1. Measure voltage at the Auto/Man switch manual output to the pump with the switch on manual. This gives a reference to compare the other measurements.
2. Measure voltage at the Auto/Man switch Auto output with the switch on Auto. This should be the brown and white striped wire to the Whale switch. This should be the full battery voltage. If it changes a lot then I think the Auto/Man switch is dodgy.
3. Measure voltage at the Auto/Man switch Man output with the switch on Auto. This is the brown wire out of the Whale switch and the supply to the pump. This should be close to the full battery voltage. If it changes a lot then I reckon the Whale switch is cream crackered.
I would suggest the following tests with the multimeter. All with the black multimeter lead on the negative supply.
1. Measure voltage at the Auto/Man switch manual output to the pump with the switch on manual. This gives a reference to compare the other measurements.
2. Measure voltage at the Auto/Man switch Auto output with the switch on Auto. This should be the brown and white striped wire to the Whale switch. This should be the full battery voltage. If it changes a lot then I think the Auto/Man switch is dodgy.
3. Measure voltage at the Auto/Man switch Man output with the switch on Auto. This is the brown wire out of the Whale switch and the supply to the pump. This should be close to the full battery voltage. If it changes a lot then I reckon the Whale switch is cream crackered.
webcraft
Well-Known Member
OK,
1) 13.4 with switch on manual, pump running normally
(Note - with switch off, this terminal shows 0.08V)
2) Fluctuating 13.7 for 1 second then 11.4 - 12.7 with pump running slow/rough
(shows 0V if switch not triggered)
3) 13.8 with switch on auto but not triggered, 13.8 with pump running on auto
So - does the team think it is the panel switch that is knackered?
- W
webcraft
Well-Known Member
Update... I am assuming the terminals on the panel switch correspond to the depressed end of the rocker switch. If so, then the brown and white wire from the Whale switch goes to the brown wire on the panel switch, but this appears to be connected to the Manual switch position.
The other wire (blue) goes to the Auto switch position.
Or does it? The terminals are labelled
ON - OFF - (ON)
WHICH IS MANUAL AND WHICH AUTOMATIC?
Now hopelessly confused!!!
- W
The other wire (blue) goes to the Auto switch position.
Or does it? The terminals are labelled
ON - OFF - (ON)
WHICH IS MANUAL AND WHICH AUTOMATIC?
Now hopelessly confused!!!
- W
webcraft
Well-Known Member
New readings with the brown wire identified as the Auto position
1) 13.8
2) 13.8
3) 13.4 dropping to 11.5 and fluctuating
Note: with meter on Auto switch position and the Whale switch not triggered, there is now a reading of 0.6V
So I guess it is looking like the Whale switch is knackered...
- W
1) 13.8
2) 13.8
3) 13.4 dropping to 11.5 and fluctuating
Note: with meter on Auto switch position and the Whale switch not triggered, there is now a reading of 0.6V
So I guess it is looking like the Whale switch is knackered...
- W
sarabande
Well-Known Member
You have found the cause of the pump problem. Can you draw up an "as installed" diagram of the wiring please ?
The very low voltage reading is likely to be related to the sensor in standby , which may then be polling the water level at frequent intervals, and somehow interfering with the supply. A simple ON-OFF-AUTO bilge pump switch is unlikely to be the source of the interruptions.
The very low voltage reading is likely to be related to the sensor in standby , which may then be polling the water level at frequent intervals, and somehow interfering with the supply. A simple ON-OFF-AUTO bilge pump switch is unlikely to be the source of the interruptions.
TernVI
Well-Known Member
Wire the bilge pump to a manual switch.
Wire the float switch to a warning light/buzzer.
Fix the leaks and dry the bilge with a cloth.
Check your manual pumps work.
Don't rely on cheap plastic pumps which are really made for non-critical jobs like pumping the rain out of unsinkable fishing boats on US lakes. They're tat that chandlers love to flog, flying off the shelf at high margin.
Don't put lots of effort into mickey mouse wiring that you're never going to trust anyway.
Invest in his'n'hers bailing buckets.
Wire the float switch to a warning light/buzzer.
Fix the leaks and dry the bilge with a cloth.
Check your manual pumps work.
Don't rely on cheap plastic pumps which are really made for non-critical jobs like pumping the rain out of unsinkable fishing boats on US lakes. They're tat that chandlers love to flog, flying off the shelf at high margin.
Don't put lots of effort into mickey mouse wiring that you're never going to trust anyway.
Invest in his'n'hers bailing buckets.
cpedw
Well-Known Member
Not. a safe assumption. They're often the other way.
According to a manual I found, brown/white is supply to Whale switch. Brown from whale comes to pump supply along with manual from panel switch.
Are you sure Whale switch is right way round?
If so I suspect the panel switch isn't working in both directions.
webcraft
Well-Known Member
This wee bilge pump and auto swith is designed to remove rainwater leaks and stuffing box drippings when the boat is unattended. There is a manual Whale Gusher for those "All Is Lost" moments, plus plenty of buckets.
- W
TernVI
Well-Known Member
Unless you're leaving the boat unattended in the water for a year, the stuffing box should not leak enough water to prime a centrifugal pump. Most of these pumps need a couple of inches of water to pump effectively and that's after they've filled the outlet pipe.
It's a shame diaphragm type electric pumps are so much more expensive.
It's a shame diaphragm type electric pumps are so much more expensive.
webcraft
Well-Known Member
There are small rainwater leaks into the lazarette, some of which finds its way into the bilge. And the stuffing box has been a bit weepy - now tightened again.
The pump and switch sit in a small sump which only holds half a bucketful of water, so the system does work. It worked for over a year after launch before expiring.
- W
Jamie Dundee
Well-Known Member
Given the importance of a working auto bilge pump and the relatively low cost involved I’d replace the whole lot. I’ve found trying to work out old installations is more trouble than it‘s worth, I’m currently binning my apparently none functional float switch and replacing with an auto pump leaving the original pump as a manually switched back up.
webcraft
Well-Known Member
It's not an 'old' installation though, the boat has only been in the water 15 months.
CPEDW has kindly provided a method to test both the Whale switch and the panel switch, which I will do tomorrow.
- W
girlofwight
Well-Known Member
I don’t know how old your BE9003 is but Whale had a dodgy batch them about 2015/2016. I’ve got two on board, and they were failing every six months or so.
I had a whinge at Whale and they promptly explained the problem and sent me a handful of replacements, which have been in use in grey water tanks for 3 or 4 years now trouble free.
I had a whinge at Whale and they promptly explained the problem and sent me a handful of replacements, which have been in use in grey water tanks for 3 or 4 years now trouble free.
NorthUp
Well-Known Member
Yes, they do go wrong. Bin it is my advice, having seen 4 out of five fail on a boat, 2 - 3 years after fitting.
webcraft
Well-Known Member
Testing with the panel switch out of the circuit confirms the field sensor is faulty.
So that's it and the wee Orca pump both u/s in 16 months.
Probably too many cycles, they are/were in a very small sump. Going to raise the new field sensor up a bit when I fit it.
- W
girlofwight
Well-Known Member
Just on cycles and the field sensors, we have them in grey water tanks where they run several times a day, even several times an hour - other than the duff batch they are fine. Obviously on different pumps to yours. As they are in grey water I give them a degrease / wipe off every six months or so.