Pete7
Well-Known Member
So whats next, a sporty catamaran perhaps? or how about one of those F27 thingies, had one moor up to us this summer for a couple of days, looked quick under sail.
Pete
Bilge keeler will I regret it?
- Thread starter KREW2
- Start date
So whats next, a sporty catamaran perhaps? or how about one of those F27 thingies, had one moor up to us this summer for a couple of days, looked quick under sail.
Pete
KREW2
Well-Known Member
Yeh! your right, I hate that boat. Hopefully this forum will stop me making a rash purchase. I have the cash waiting, so I feel should be in a strong position, apathy has lost me the chance to look at three boats I might have wanted to buy.
Here's one http://uk.yachtworld.com/core/listi...ign-32-2110933/United-Kingdom&boat_id=2110933
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grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
I've never tried that one but my remark was tongue-in-cheek, honest. I was implying that that's about the worst thing I can think of to say about bilge keelers as long as they're designed properly (i.e. not a couple of vestigial stubs mainly there to let the boat dry out upright). I have no memories of excessive keel slap on the various twin keelers I've sailed (mostly Hunters or Westerlies).
Even allowing for the colour I'd go for the bilge keeler but not at that much of a price premium (not that I would recommend anyone use my opinion as a benchmark).
The extra flexibility of being able to use drying sites is priceless I reckon but then I started out on the East Coast and I'm probably a bit set in my ways...
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
In a way, I think longkeeler has summed it up. If you are into cruising and most concerned about the boat as a floating holiday cottage, I can see lots of advantages to bilge keelers. Or cats for that matter - I've owned both.
But if sailing performance matters to you, if you want the sort of boat where you chose to tease her along in light winds rather than just put on the engine, or you want to race - then a fin keeler is the way to go. And a deep fin at that.
Personally I couldnt care one jot where we end up, it's the journey that I go for.
But if sailing performance matters to you, if you want the sort of boat where you chose to tease her along in light winds rather than just put on the engine, or you want to race - then a fin keeler is the way to go. And a deep fin at that.
Personally I couldnt care one jot where we end up, it's the journey that I go for.
30boat
N/A
I own a fin keel Fulmar. The other day I was sailing with a friend ,who owns a twin keel version,in a stiff breeze and was only about to consider reefing when my friend said that by that time his boat would have been overpowered .
I thought that was interesting as the boat wasn't even dipping the gunwale and reefing was still a matter of being more comfortable.For sailing ability I'd say most fin keel boats are better that twin keel boats .There are many variables of course and it all depends on what you want from a boat.
I thought that was interesting as the boat wasn't even dipping the gunwale and reefing was still a matter of being more comfortable.For sailing ability I'd say most fin keel boats are better that twin keel boats .There are many variables of course and it all depends on what you want from a boat.
I read a book ages ago that said Maurice Griffiths invented the first bilge keeler Searush.Sometime around the second world war I think & unless I am very much mistaken that was a long time before Westerly came into existence.Was'nt that about the 50's?
A friend of mine Percy See a very well regarded boat builder here in Fareham said his company gave up building boats when fiber glass came in & Westerly started mass producing them.Interesting.
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
Like most ideas it is often difficult to pinpoint the origin. Lord Riversdale was perhaps the first supporter of twin keels that put his money where his mouth was in 1928 with Bluebird. Robert Clark also designed a twin keeled 25 footer called Buttercup in 1937.
Maurice Griffiths never actually designed a twin keel boat. His contribution was using bilge keels to achieve shallow draft. He did this in conjunction with a single central ballast keel. One of his objectives was similar to that of later designers such as David Feltham and David Thomas - the keels were at an angle so the leeward keel was vertical when heeled. However, the main reasons for him were to make drying out easy and reduce roll when running downwind. You have only to look at the mid section of the a Lone Gull II hull to see why that was valuable!
Many designers in the 50's and 60's such as Robert Tucker and David Rayner adopted twin keels, partly because it was easier to design and build in plywood and partly because centre boards of the time were a PITA - leaking and taking up too much space in small hulls.
For a good discussion on the early days of shallow draft developments read MGs Little Ships and Shoal Waters.
Maurice Griffiths never actually designed a twin keel boat. His contribution was using bilge keels to achieve shallow draft. He did this in conjunction with a single central ballast keel. One of his objectives was similar to that of later designers such as David Feltham and David Thomas - the keels were at an angle so the leeward keel was vertical when heeled. However, the main reasons for him were to make drying out easy and reduce roll when running downwind. You have only to look at the mid section of the a Lone Gull II hull to see why that was valuable!
Many designers in the 50's and 60's such as Robert Tucker and David Rayner adopted twin keels, partly because it was easier to design and build in plywood and partly because centre boards of the time were a PITA - leaking and taking up too much space in small hulls.
For a good discussion on the early days of shallow draft developments read MGs Little Ships and Shoal Waters.
I expect your right Tranona & I have read Little Ships & shoal waters several times I think.
Mention of it got me rooting around in my sideboard.Unerthed "Post War Yachting" by MG.That's pretty good read to.Alsorts of good down to earth practical advice.Thanks
Mention of it got me rooting around in my sideboard.Unerthed "Post War Yachting" by MG.That's pretty good read to.Alsorts of good down to earth practical advice.Thanks
johnphilip
Well-Known Member
A Pretty looking hull above waterline but she will need that big genoa to get to windward. Bilge keels will affect upwind performance but the shoal draft does certainly open up many more creeks and harbours, I am not keen on the rudder though, that big cut out will let the prop wash straight through and marina or lock manourering will be interesting. I suppose thats why the bow thruster has been added, unusual to have the drag of that on a 32' boat. Also as the rudder is hung on the front edge with no balance is it not likely to be heavy on the helm?
Not as pretty but probably sail better how about a Fulmar, twin or fin.
Not as pretty but probably sail better how about a Fulmar, twin or fin.
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
As good a warning of an un-handy boat as you're likely to get.
KREW2
Well-Known Member
Thanks some interseting points on the rudder, and yes I do like the fin keel Fulmar
, http://uk.yachtworld.com/core/listi...ign-32-2110933/United-Kingdom&boat_id=2110933
This is a photo of the rudder on a long fin keel Sovereign, (picture no. 9) which is my first choice of boat, will the handling still be the same?
Slow_boat
Well-Known Member
That first Soveriegn 32 looks lovely down below but I don't like the underwater profile much, maybe because it was designed as a fin keeler really. Very expensive, too. Think of the Sadler 32 or 34 or Fulmar or Moody you could get for that and they were designed as bilge keelers.
I sail the East coast and find that I can only afford to sail at all is because of the cheap (£100 pa) half tide mooring I can use with bilge keels. I do anchor up little creeks and though don't usually dry out completely (well, not intentioally), do take to the ground at anchor and remain upright. I'm not sure the slightly shallower draught makes much difference, I usually tack at 2m depth which would still be okay for most fin keelers of that size, and if I do run aground, I can't heel her to get off.
The weather keel on my Sadler 29 does slap sometimes but that is an indication that you're healing to much. She is a very, very sweet boat to sail. Having sailed Sadler and Fulmers in both fin and bilge versions, I think that well designed bilge keelers give a little, but only a little, away in terms of performance and the other advantages far outweigh that.
In summary, if you want a twin keeler, I wouldn't go for the Soveriegn but if you want a Soveriegn, the fin and skeg looks nice.
But I don't race, so what do I know ;-)
I sail the East coast and find that I can only afford to sail at all is because of the cheap (£100 pa) half tide mooring I can use with bilge keels. I do anchor up little creeks and though don't usually dry out completely (well, not intentioally), do take to the ground at anchor and remain upright. I'm not sure the slightly shallower draught makes much difference, I usually tack at 2m depth which would still be okay for most fin keelers of that size, and if I do run aground, I can't heel her to get off.
The weather keel on my Sadler 29 does slap sometimes but that is an indication that you're healing to much. She is a very, very sweet boat to sail. Having sailed Sadler and Fulmers in both fin and bilge versions, I think that well designed bilge keelers give a little, but only a little, away in terms of performance and the other advantages far outweigh that.
In summary, if you want a twin keeler, I wouldn't go for the Soveriegn but if you want a Soveriegn, the fin and skeg looks nice.
But I don't race, so what do I know ;-)
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DJE
Well-Known Member
Another devotee of the bilge keel Sadlers here. I've had a 29 for 10 years and recently been thinking about a bigger boat. The most difficult decision we face is the choice of keel type. Offshore there's no doubt about it I'd prefer a deep fin keel but I spend a lot more time creeping up creeks or anchoring in the shallows where the bilge keels are worth their weight in gold.
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
A Sadler 29 bilge has to be the best small bilge keeler you can get for offshore work. The ones that race in our fleet are slow dogs in light airs but really come to the fore when the wind gets up to 30knots. I'd certainly buy one if I were doing inshore cruising and wanted a boat of that size.
For judging performance you can do no better than look at the PY handicaps which are based on actual results.. In our fleet a Sadler 29 bilge on a PY of 1182 is just managing to beat a Hunter 30 bilge on 1103 ( ie the Sadler is about 7% slower on average on all points of sail) and both are split in the rankings by a Trapper 28 fin on 1047. So the Hunter is maybe 5% slower than the Trapper despite extra length and the Sadler is about 12% slower. All the skippers are of roughly the same level of competence ( they are all doing well in the series) and you can be sure they are all trying like h*ll.
Incidentally, these handicaps are adjusted race by race in the light of performance so they arent theoretical figures from a program.
For judging performance you can do no better than look at the PY handicaps which are based on actual results.. In our fleet a Sadler 29 bilge on a PY of 1182 is just managing to beat a Hunter 30 bilge on 1103 ( ie the Sadler is about 7% slower on average on all points of sail) and both are split in the rankings by a Trapper 28 fin on 1047. So the Hunter is maybe 5% slower than the Trapper despite extra length and the Sadler is about 12% slower. All the skippers are of roughly the same level of competence ( they are all doing well in the series) and you can be sure they are all trying like h*ll.
Incidentally, these handicaps are adjusted race by race in the light of performance so they arent theoretical figures from a program.
Pete7
Well-Known Member
One of those Sadler 29s is doing the ARC this year, not sure if it is a fin or bilge though.
http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/Boat.aspx?B=7205&BookingID=1155
KREW2
Well-Known Member
What a great response, and thanks to all. I now realise I do not need a bilge keeler, infact I never really thought I did. However if something came on the market that really took my fancy I would not rule it out, which is something I have been doing.
mcframe
Well-Known Member
I've got a bilge keeler.
I now realise I do not need a bilge keeler, however if a Dragonfly came on the market that really took my fancy I would not rule it out... ;-)
Hmm... fast, doesn't fall over, but you've got to scrub and a/f *three* hulls.
DJE
Well-Known Member
Bloody Hell! and here's me racing mine off 1094.
All this will be grist to the mill of the upcoming handicap adjustment, but seeing as I won the series this year I can't see my handicap improving any time soon!
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
Interesting. Is that after adjustment for being no 1 ?
The Byron software gives a starting PY of 1125 for the 29 bilge inc spinnaker. I think the boat concerned has a 3 blade prop which will increase the figure a bit more. But now I look at the numbers they surprise me a bit.
Trouble is when PY racing gets down to arguments about handicaps and formal protests after races, it all gets less fun and a bit too serious. Thats what IRC is for.
The Byron software gives a starting PY of 1125 for the 29 bilge inc spinnaker. I think the boat concerned has a 3 blade prop which will increase the figure a bit more. But now I look at the numbers they surprise me a bit.
Trouble is when PY racing gets down to arguments about handicaps and formal protests after races, it all gets less fun and a bit too serious. Thats what IRC is for.
DJE
Well-Known Member
I don't really know where the PY number came from for my boat. I've been racing on that number for 10 years now. It's a very mixed fleet and the results depend on the weather as much as anything. There's a couple of small Beneteaus that are giving me time, which is fair enough in light winds when they just sail away from me but give me a F4-5 or more and they haven't got a chance.