GHA
Well-Known Member
Tricky when many of us are opinionated cruisers who think we know more about anchoring than everyone else
(some even believe it.. )
Bigger anchor or more chain
- Thread starter Gixer
- Start date
(some even believe it.. )
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Honestly, i'm one of those flotilla sailors that you guys try to avoid
My understanding of anchoring in shouting to the wife to press the button and counting to five....
Prepared to learn though!
Don't shout, especially at your wife, learn some hand signals
. Signals for deployment are pretty simple, just agree how much you want to deploy before hand. Retrieval is slightly more complex as your wife needs to point to the where, or how, the chain is lying. Shouting might be a reason Flotillas get a bad press . One thing you might not do - when you back up have your wife lay here fingers lightly on the chain outboard of the bow roller when you have deployed what you consider is the correct length of chain if it vibrates the anchor is simply bouncing over the surface - if it is steady the anchor is set (but I maybe arrogantly telling you what you already know - in which case apologies). As you can imagine I watch people deploying their anchor and maybe 1 in 100 actually touch the chain. You can of course use transits to see if you are moving backwards - but touchy feely is so much better, for anchors as well. We don't see flotillas in Oz, I only read about them. The absence of Flotillas is one of the reasons it has been called 'The Lucky Country!' But it can be a misnomer - we are envious of the 'history' through which you can sail.
Jonathan
TernVI
Well-Known Member
If you are limited by the size of the locker, consider getting a bigger anchor in the Fortress style, in Aluminium and keeping it below with a medium amount of chain.
Keep a small(ish) anchor, a bit of chain and loads of string in the locker on deck, nice and easy for benign conditions, 'lunch hook', 'emergency brake' etc.
Looking at your avatar, I'd guess your boat will go better with less weight in the anchor locker.
Gixer
Well-Known Member
Funnily enough TernVI this is part of my goal with the refit, I'm trying to get the weight down as much as possible and any weight as low down as possible. Its amazing how much #### you can accumulate. Thanks for the suggestion. I did just scare myself looking at the price of the aluminum anchors then realised the whole point is you don't need the same weight as other anchors.. ? 
Jonathan - I was being dramatic, my wife and I have a really good signal system to show the direction of the chain, etc. We just need a signal for when the anchor had got stuck on the bow roller when deploying.... (this is on the hire Med boats not mine which doesn't have a windless so my wife wouldn't go near it)
Jonathan - I was being dramatic, my wife and I have a really good signal system to show the direction of the chain, etc. We just need a signal for when the anchor had got stuck on the bow roller when deploying....
(this is on the hire Med boats not mine which doesn't have a windless so my wife wouldn't go near it)
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V1701
Well-Known Member
Most of the time I keep both my anchors in one of the under bunk lockers in the forepeak. Boat is a Bowman 26 and I have a 9kg Knox which is a little bit heavier than I could have gotten away with but I was supposed to be having a year off and going sailing and anchoring a lot last year. The other is a genuine Fortress which is the recommended size and weighs just 2.3kg, amazing. These replaced a poor CQR copy that was a liability and a really horrible old danforth style. In your position yes I would heartily recommend a Fortress, the one that you can adjust the angle on if you can just for an additional bit of flexibility, or the Guardian which is less expensive...
Neeves
Well-Known Member
If you want to save weight, downsize the chain. That's how to make the big savings, in weight.
If you are likely to anchor in weed or stones/pebbles then a Fortress would not be a good choice (but they are worth carrying as a second anchor anyway. In the past people have posted that they have bought a Fortress off eBay and seem to imply they come up for sale with regularity.
I note you mention Fortress are expensive - Lewmar have their Fortress clone now, the LFX, and Manson have their blue Racer, which is a welded aluminium Danforth design. I don't know how they are priced. Historically the cheapest way to buy a Fortress was in America as they can be added to checked in luggage - but I suspect no-one goes to nor comes back from America any more
The Guardian has a fixed angle, of 32 degrees, and is not anodised. I've actually never heard of anyone complaining about the absence of anodising. The guardian also only has a circular hole for the shackle, so you need to put the shackle pin through the hole. This then means you need another shackle with its pin through the chain.
Jonathan
If you are likely to anchor in weed or stones/pebbles then a Fortress would not be a good choice (but they are worth carrying as a second anchor anyway. In the past people have posted that they have bought a Fortress off eBay and seem to imply they come up for sale with regularity.
I note you mention Fortress are expensive - Lewmar have their Fortress clone now, the LFX, and Manson have their blue Racer, which is a welded aluminium Danforth design. I don't know how they are priced. Historically the cheapest way to buy a Fortress was in America as they can be added to checked in luggage - but I suspect no-one goes to nor comes back from America any more
The Guardian has a fixed angle, of 32 degrees, and is not anodised. I've actually never heard of anyone complaining about the absence of anodising. The guardian also only has a circular hole for the shackle, so you need to put the shackle pin through the hole. This then means you need another shackle with its pin through the chain.
Jonathan
Gixer
Well-Known Member
Think I’m sold on a 6kg Kobra and 20m of 6mm chain which will live in my locker and then get a Fortress to have tucked away as a second anchor.
Thanks guys
Thanks guys
thinwater
Well-Known Member
True. But...
- Owner bias is always strong. People don't like to admit they made a mistake, even a small one. Politics makes this very clear.
- It is the fastest engauging anchor. This will ALWAYS make it seem best, if it does not drag. My point here is that the characteristics measured by most ancedotal reports are fast setting. Rotation, reset, and maximum holding capacity are much harder to measure quantitatively and objectively. And unless and anchor drags (very, very rare with a properly used and sized NG anchor) you can't derive any difference between them.
---
That said, the Mantus M1 is a very good anchor. I've used it a good bit. It has set a standard for quick engagement and does well in most bottoms. My comment was NOT about Mantus. I've heard the same "this is the greatest" many times from new buyers of many products. You've got to watch that one. On the other hand, if they all say it sucks... yeah, I'd pay attention to that, but as why and how. Sometimes they are using said produt wrong or don't understand what they bought. The latter is common.
MystyBlue2
Well-Known Member
Any particular reason you would think again with a bruce type?
I have a 12ft (CJR type hull), 2.5kg bruce with 14ft 6mm galv chain and 100m rope and its AWLAYS held bottom and hasn't dragged once.
I've always had a bruce and it's NEVER let me down...now maybe I've mentioned this it will show me up.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
There is a suggestion, that your experience contradicts, that bigger Bruce work better than smaller ones. I've seen this comment a number of times, there is some consistency. Bruce do seem to work well in softer, but not exceptionally soft, substrates - so in mud but can struggle in hard sand, and weed. They are also adept at collecting fluke sized coral or stones.
Modern anchors also have problems, but less problems - they are more forgiving. Modern anchor set more reliably and consistently and if used in appropriate seabeds = develop more consistent hold. Many people use CQRs, Bruce and Deltas without problems but so many more have tried these designs and have rejected them (possibly because they don't have the patience to learn the nuances needed) and praise modern designs. Anchoring should not be a chore, it should be easy and reliable - modern anchors appear to meet that need.
But no anchor is perfect - don't let complacency grow.
If a Bruce works for you - save your money. Stick with what you have. But if you need to change your anchor, different boat, change of location - look at the newer designs - as well as try what you are used to.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
There maybe a misunderstanding
And I have aired all of this previously - sorry Norman, I'll say it all again.
I have said the Mantus M1 has the hold of a Delta, its slightly better than a Delta for hold - but roughly 50% of the hold of a Rocna, Excel, Spade etc. How do I know this - I've measured it a number of times. I have also said that hold seems to reflect another characteristic that anchors with higher hold don't appear to drag with the same frequency as anchors with lower hold. It merits note that though people complain of the frequency with which the lower hold anchors drag, Delta, CQR, Bruce - there are many who use these anchors with success and the fact they adorn many bow rollers today - attests to their success.
I tend to equate low hold with an increased propensity to drag QED, buy an anchor with high hold.
Now Mantus seems to buck this analysis because it has low hold but reports of dragging are uncommon (I've never seen a report of a Mantus dragging). But read Thinwater's post 48 above - that people don't like to admit they have bought a lemon. I know Mantus sets shallow - all underwater photographs confirm this - so I remain twitchy.
Giving Mantus the benefit of the doubt my analysis of hold reflecting dragging is, possibly, too simplistic and there is some other factor we don't know about (or it does drag and people don't care to report it).
The other conclusion might be that hold does not reflect a propensity to drag and the high hold of Rocna, Excel and Spade can be sacrificed - we are buying anchors that are far too big (have too much hold) are spending money unnecessarily and many people could be using smaller, modern, anchors, safely.
At this time, with my limited knowledge, I don't know what characteristic, other than hold, makes modern anchors more reliable so I am not advocating buying anchors smaller than recommended by the manufacturer (though I do lean to buying smaller anchors - our anchors for our catamaran are minimalistic - but that's a personal decision based on gut feel - which I live with and I don't expect anyone to live with my 'gut feel'). I equally don't recommend buying a Mantus because I don't know, cannot define, what characteristic, might, make it reliable - and there are other anchors, Rocna, Spade, Excel, Kobra, Supreme, Ultra that do have high hold and don't have a reputation for dragging (other than clogged flukes and yawing) - so there is plenty of reliable choice.
Jonathan
And I have aired all of this previously - sorry Norman, I'll say it all again.
I have said the Mantus M1 has the hold of a Delta, its slightly better than a Delta for hold - but roughly 50% of the hold of a Rocna, Excel, Spade etc. How do I know this - I've measured it a number of times. I have also said that hold seems to reflect another characteristic that anchors with higher hold don't appear to drag with the same frequency as anchors with lower hold. It merits note that though people complain of the frequency with which the lower hold anchors drag, Delta, CQR, Bruce - there are many who use these anchors with success and the fact they adorn many bow rollers today - attests to their success.
I tend to equate low hold with an increased propensity to drag QED, buy an anchor with high hold.
Now Mantus seems to buck this analysis because it has low hold but reports of dragging are uncommon (I've never seen a report of a Mantus dragging). But read Thinwater's post 48 above - that people don't like to admit they have bought a lemon. I know Mantus sets shallow - all underwater photographs confirm this - so I remain twitchy.
Giving Mantus the benefit of the doubt my analysis of hold reflecting dragging is, possibly, too simplistic and there is some other factor we don't know about (or it does drag and people don't care to report it).
The other conclusion might be that hold does not reflect a propensity to drag and the high hold of Rocna, Excel and Spade can be sacrificed - we are buying anchors that are far too big (have too much hold) are spending money unnecessarily and many people could be using smaller, modern, anchors, safely.
At this time, with my limited knowledge, I don't know what characteristic, other than hold, makes modern anchors more reliable so I am not advocating buying anchors smaller than recommended by the manufacturer (though I do lean to buying smaller anchors - our anchors for our catamaran are minimalistic - but that's a personal decision based on gut feel - which I live with and I don't expect anyone to live with my 'gut feel'). I equally don't recommend buying a Mantus because I don't know, cannot define, what characteristic, might, make it reliable - and there are other anchors, Rocna, Spade, Excel, Kobra, Supreme, Ultra that do have high hold and don't have a reputation for dragging (other than clogged flukes and yawing) - so there is plenty of reliable choice.
Jonathan
srm
Well-Known Member
Having watched, while diving, a small anchor with horizontal chain being gently pulled along over a softish sea bed I would suggest a heavier anchor might make the essential initial penetration of the sediment.
Gixer
Well-Known Member
I made my decision on post #47 and no one will change my mind.... right?
MystyBlue2
Well-Known Member
Yeah with me only having a small boat i took a gamble and opted for a small light anchor but more chain to increase the horizontal angle pull across the sea bed.
It would not be practical for me to have a huge and heavy set up as my boat is so small and the more weight i carry the more unstable the boat becomes, and means i have to be super weight conscious as the displacement of my craft is very small so i need to think things through very carefully.
I have my anchor stowed away into a large plastic storage box with a lid and the whole thing weighs 12kg. Including 2.5kg bruce, 14ft 6mm galv chain + 100m rope. So an A1 polyform bouy can easily pull this out as they have buoyancy of 15kg.
I think the extra chain helps keep the anchor at the correct angle to seabed which allows the anchor to set better instead of dragging, which means i can get away with a smaller/lighter anchor but i am only on sand like mentioned above to this could all change depending on sea bed composition.
Im just letting people know my experiences with my type of setup.
TBH i dont have a clue when it comes to anchoring i just blagged it, Throw it overboard and it works.
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oldmanofthehills
Well-Known Member
My Bruce worked best of all anchors when I sailed the muddy Bristol Channel and even coped with semi-boulder gravel further down along. CQR useless until one goes up to 45lb for larger yacht I dont have.
A Bruce seems to work less well sometimes in Plymouth and South Cornwall area and does not cope well with kelp. CQQR still useless. Supreme fine but a bit overkill and hard to store
Neeves
Well-Known Member
That's how it should be.
You switch on a chart plotter - and it works. You turn on you engine, press a button (whatever the procedure0 - it works. You turn on a tap and water comes out.....
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I made my decision on post #47 and no one will change my mind.... right?
Thank you for post 47.
It seems you were right with Post 47 and Post 53 - you are onto a winner
Our second rode is similar to your primary - ours is 15m of 6mm chain and 40m of 3 ply. We store in a milk crate, I coil the rope round the inside of the crate, you need a bit of patience. This leaves a circular hole in the middle of the coil and I simply drop the chain into the hole. I've previously unshackled the anchor, our anchors are a bit bigger than yours, and the shackle is left attached to the rode and sits 'on top'. Its easier to carry the rode along the deck to store. The milk crate is full of holes (as milk crates are) so it drains and airs and the chain does not sit on wet rope. I shackle spare shackles to the edge of the crate -just in case.
Our bow locker 'almost' takes a stack of 3 milk crates one on top of the other. We have 2 stacks, so 6 crates. The crates keep mooring lines etc tidy. The forward of the front pile is a bit too high (as the deck slopes down) and I've simply chopped the top edge of the crate off to suit. It is still sufficiently robust to carry about. We deploy sometimes from a dinghy and I can simply lift the milk crate and put in the dinghy. But you can source all sorts of crates of different sizes in hard ware stores to suit different lockers.
I appreciate you might be keeping the rode in your confined bow locker - just advising our practice. Offering the chain as dry an environment as is practicable will prolong chain life.
Jonathan