Big Ships can slow down in fog.

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Peppermint

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Chatting to "The Chief" last night about the speed of shipping in poor viz. Looking at it from the other side of the fence he's about as sympathetic as Harold Shipman to us yotties. Ships carry goods under contract and the contract has delivery timetables and penalties for late arrivals. The contract also has clauses relating to weather. In more than a F5 or in poor viz the Master can slow down without penalty. Often though they chose not to. This might be as a result of time being lost earlier in the voyage that was subject to penalty or just to put a bit of time in the bank for later.

He also told me a tale about a ship in dry dock, not one of his but a big one, where the hooter had been disconnected, by removal of several metres of pipework at the previous drydock, for some years and nobody had logged it.

Time to buy that radar I reckon.

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Never heard of the horn being disconnected but I do very clearly remember a Mitsui 40 40,000 ton geared bulk carrier, built in 1981, which had a big button on the console marked:

PRESS FOR TYPHOON

It was a Tyfon horn - incredibly loud.



<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?
 
I think that given modern radar tracking, communications it would not be impossible to set up a restricted speeds limits like they do on Motorways when there is a problem ahead. I personally think that a ship that can hardly see over its bow in normal conditions should not be motoring at 25knots in any situation.



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But to be honest if they aren't keeping a proper lookout then it really doesn't matter whether it is foggy or not.

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Not quite sure as to what company owned the boat with the whistle pipe-work missing or what flag it was registered under but you certainly wouldnt find that happening with a British reg'ed vessel or one with Brit officers on board or any vessel which visits UK ports.(check out the MCA's detention record for proof)
Strict planned maintenance systems are required to be in place by the International Safety Management code (ISM) that include testing of such devices on a regular basis. If not on departure from port then once a week. Further more i very much doubt a commercial vessel would get through a (MCA) port state control survey where-by an MCA surveyor would visit the vessel at least once per year to examine safety appliances and renew the vessels safety certificate (be it the cargo ship or passenger ship safety cert). So rest assured that strict rules govern commercial vessels and require them to comply with all the latest safety regulations. As to a ships captain not slowing down in poor viz because of commercial pressures?, well in all my time at sea i havent sailed with one that would'nt, not when the lives of the crew are dependant on making that decision! As an engineer i may sometimes find ships captains to be a pain, but one thing they are not is un-proffesional/irresponsible.

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by anchorhandler on 09/03/2004 13:16 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
worth reading gwynneth dunwoody - chair of HoC transport. her questions to maurice storey, MCA, reveal a less assuring picture. the lack of surveyors, the inability of the mca to provide IMO Paris targeted database information to their surveyors and the tendency to survey vessels which are 'clean' and 'quick' thus fulfilling the quota requirement of number of inspections.

coming up closely behind the Vespucci which ran down wahkuna was the yokohama senator. the yokohama is very similar in size to the vespucci and was also travelling at 25kn. it's record with port inspections is troubling. it was in Seattle last year with a navigation fault. her collision avoidance radar was inoperative due to a magnetron fault and this year was picked up in Felixstowe with another navigation fault which was not rectified.


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Hello Parahandy
I have to agree with you to a certain extent. It would be naive to say that the MCA are perfect and believe me, i have had reason in the past to not appreciate them. (some may even argue that the MCA are becoming more and more profit orientated..not me of course!!....) however i have seen many an instances of ......complacency shall we say, on board vessels where an attitude of "oh we'l fix that later when we get time" exists. In those instences it was beneficial to have a little reminder in the way of an upcomming survey to 'prompt' the crew to fix whatever needed fixing. So yeah i agree that the MCA has its faults but the service they provide is better than not having a service at all. At least the faults on the Yokohama Senetor were picked up at Felixstowe. One has to ask a few questions regarding her, does she fly a 'flag of convenience'?, What nationality are her crew?, what class is she registered with?..
Unfortunately though, no matter how stringent the regulations become there will always be a few 'rust buckets' floating around out there! A bit like the number of dodgy cars driving around on our roads without tax,mot, insuance etc... Things are slowly getting better though!

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Re: Compulsary Simulator training for Yachtsmen required.

Most of the Old Men I sailed with had the same attitude. I wonder how many appreciate the problems that occur with large ships at the speeds some on this forum advocate shipping should slow to. Perhaps a compulsary day on a bridge simulator before you get a RYA skippers ticket shoud be mandatory. Basically we should all out of the way - period.

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No Enforcement

Talking here about the Moody and the P&O container collision.
Interesting that the MAIB report identified that the vast majority of ships tracked by radar during the period within which the incident occured did not slow down.
What happened as a consequence - nothing (other than one yacht hitting the floor of the channel!).
Without enforcement there will be no change in behaviour.

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Re: Compulsary Simulator training for Yachtsmen required.

Might is right, everyone keep out of the way, I've been awake 36hrs had too many drinks and I will be fired if I arrive an hour late, 50mts is not thick fog anyway. Sound signal, what with my hangover, no way!

Now is that 40kt Seacat going to give way to me or not? Surely he must realise we are 10 times his size, Oh well its only 400 dead, could have been worse it might have been summer and a full ferry. Fishing boat - what fishing boat? Well I didn't see it, and it is not on radar anymore so it couldn't have been there. Don't they know they have no right to be out here fishing, this is my territory not for small boats.

RULES are RULES. If they are not to be followed by all then the rules need to be changed so that everyone sings from the same hymn sheet. In the meantime obey the rules until such time as it is obvious the other guy isn't, otherwise all that happens is that EVERYONE is confused. Keeping out of the way of everything is fine in principle and not always easy to achieve in practice especially in fog and in really busy areas like the English Channel.

All IMHO of course as always.



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When I was among the team commisioning a new 22k grt reefer from Denmark, we were somewhat alarmed at the notices on the afterdeck stating "Personnel past this point will die". Scarey stuff!

Something lost in translation me thinks..

Off topic i know, but I thought it might brighten an otherwise terrifying thread..

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Re: Easy

ere, what's this "merchant marine"?? Ain't we in Blighty here? (virtually we are global i'll grant you) Merchant Navy please Ken, otherwise I shall have to start "Prioritizing"

urggggh

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Quite so

although it is rather hard to find the MN these days.

13,000-odd British officers revalidate their tickets; assuming 2,000 or so of these work ashore but need the bit of paper, that makes 11,000 or so at sea. Most of whom are on non-British-flag ships, though some of these are British owned.

Take off the ferries and the offshore sector and you don't have much left.

Biggest UK flag shipowner is, er, Maersk!

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?
 
Re: Quite so

Morning Mirelle
I coulnt have said it better myself....
On the surface it would seem as though Prescot is making an effort to re-build the M.N. fleet (tonnage tax scheme), and yes, it is nice to see more and more vessels flying the red duster as they register themselves back in Blighty. However more needs to be done to encourage companies to not only 'come back' to the UK but also take on British officers and crew. At the moment most of the vessels registering in the UK are foriegn crew so ,one has to ask, "what is the point?' (apart from the obvious revenue these ships generate)

Next time enyone reading this is out cruising/sailing, make sure you do fly the red ensign....not because 'its the normal thing to do'......but because it represents a proud tradition and heritage.... not just the country the boat is registered in.

We need to strengthen the bond this country has with shipping/sailing/maritime affairs after all......... we are an island.




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Why don't the MCA at Dover, who monitor all boats through the Dover Strait, prosecute any ships speeding in fog? They have, rightly, fined yachtsmen for sailing the wrong way up the seperation zone or crossing not at right angles. A few whacking fines would soon slow the juggernaughts down! Fog could easily be established by fitting sensors to the many navigation bouys in the area. I would also include the cross-channel ferries then it might be worth buying shares in Eurotunnel!

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Re: Whats a British Master earn

I agree with you but, well qualified?
I've lost track of how many dangerous drivers i've seen on the road recently....all of which have driver licence's!
Look back at the the 'Tricolor' incident to find out what nationality the officers/crew were of the THREE vessels which later ran over her!
Unfortunately it is well known that some country's standards of training are higher than others.
The world wants cleaner, safer sea's but no one want to pay for the privilege hence a lot of companies opting for, as you mentioned, Eastern European or far Eastern crews at a much reduced rate.

As they say...You buy cheap, you buy twice!








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Re: In every walk of life

you will find jobs going to the cheapest source of labour.

My mate works with Russians and they seem pretty good boat drivers but they are different.

The other problem he's noticed is that on passage for a refit a vessel that is by most countries standards "unfit for sea" will stay at sea despite whatever is thrown at it by way of weather or breakdown rather than seek shelter somewhere it knows it will be arrested. One mate of his went missing for 12 weeks on a ship going from The Dutch Antillies to Estonia in winter months while the storms raged and the engine didn't go and the shipping line tried to find a yard to take it at a price they'd pay. Not a UK line but UK managers too.

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