jhr
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a plan. There's always the occasional person circumnavigating the IOW at weekends, but I can't see that they'd hold you up much.
Beware - Customs monitoring Scuttlebutt
- Thread starter Sailfree
- Start date
Robin
Well-Known Member
Well to correct a few misconceptions from my viewpoint. The Big Customs boat that is referred to here is just that, BIG like a small minesweeper say and the RIB referred to is part of that and not a little local runaround for sunny days. The RIB is stowed in the back of the big boat and is launched out of the stern down a sort of slipway, not lifted in. The big boat approaches from behind and so hides the RIB from view whilst it is being launched, but once it is it is VERY noisy, big diesel inboard and it arrives alongside very suddenly. In our case last year yes they were all wearing black drysuits, boots and helmets and were on board very swiflty whilst the driver took off to deposit some more colleagues on another yacht ahead of us. The big boat BTW has variable pitch props so can follow discretely at 'yacht' speed if they are say following one, maybe even with radar from just over the horizon. In our case they could not have been more courteous.
These are front line officers and probably 90% of their activities are normally intelligence led rather than random finds, but they now do this overt random stop in between covert jobs as well so that word gets round that our coast is covered. I see no problem with that.
As far as illegals and getting rid of illegals are concerned I would like to see that properly done, but that is an entirely different subject and it seems very political. Most of these illegals I suspect don't find their way into the UK via Dipstick of Deben hidden in a box of wine.
As for E-Borders, again a different thing entirely and it seems intended to be as controlling over genuine British subjects leaving as it does on illegals arriving, not to mention that applying it to small boat or aircraft movements is not thought through properly at all and probably unworkable. It is not the same as the old Customs routine from 20 years or more back, this is something much more and unecessarily controlling.
These are front line officers and probably 90% of their activities are normally intelligence led rather than random finds, but they now do this overt random stop in between covert jobs as well so that word gets round that our coast is covered. I see no problem with that.
As far as illegals and getting rid of illegals are concerned I would like to see that properly done, but that is an entirely different subject and it seems very political. Most of these illegals I suspect don't find their way into the UK via Dipstick of Deben hidden in a box of wine.
As for E-Borders, again a different thing entirely and it seems intended to be as controlling over genuine British subjects leaving as it does on illegals arriving, not to mention that applying it to small boat or aircraft movements is not thought through properly at all and probably unworkable. It is not the same as the old Customs routine from 20 years or more back, this is something much more and unecessarily controlling.
pmyatt
Well-Known Member
Sadly, whoever is running these operations has little understanding of the message they are sending out, either that, or they don't care! They could take an example from the Police - but they won't! A high visibility police presence reduces crime - there is no need for "Stop and Search" if crime reduction is the real aim(?). Long military experience has shown that overt patrolling has no intelligence gathering capability, intelligence gathering is done covertly. In a warfighting situation, overt patrolling is designed to deny the enemy freedom of movement; in a peacekeeping environment it is designed to demonstrate control and give the civilian population confidence. The moment you set up road blocks (boarding parties) you reduce the support and sympathy of the civilian population as you are stopping them from going about their normal business and treating them as the enemy. Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan have all demonstrated this. Nevertheless perhaps we "yachties" have misunderstood the actions of the HMRC - their sole raison-detre is the collection of taxes so, perhaps, the message from the boarding parties really is "we don't give a **** - you are all the enemy". Of course none of this would happen if they had to get a warrant before a search!
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Sadly, whoever is running these operations has little understanding of the message they are sending out, either that, or they don't care! They could take an example from the Police - but they won't! A high visibility police presence reduces crime - there is no need for "Stop and Search" if crime reduction is the real aim(?). g environment it is designed to demonstrate control and give the civilian population confidence. The moment you set up road blocks (boarding parties) you reduce the support and sympathy of the civilian population as you are stopping them from going about their normal business and treating them as the enemy. Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan have all demonstrated this. Nevertheless perhaps we "yachties" have misunderstood the actions of the HMRC - their sole raison-detre is the collection of taxes so, perhaps, the message from the boarding parties really is "we don't give a **** - you are all the enemy".
[/ QUOTE ]
Been reading others responses and examining my own feelings about being boarded and overall I think you have summed it up rather well.
They were polite and as its my first experience of being boarded it aroused my curiosity but frankly if it happens again I will be a bit p*ssed off with it all as I am not doing anything wrong.
I would feel different if it was publicised that there had been many illegal immigrants captured or drugs discovered but the lack of publicity of these occuring as a result of random searches leads me to believe that true drug busts occur as a result of intelligence and these customs boardings are an unecessary intrusion into our freedom of the seas.
Its just that I don't see the justification for them but would happily change my mind if someone can produce some evidence of a benefit to the security of the UK.
Be interested in any informed opinions surely someone on here must work for customs.
Sadly, whoever is running these operations has little understanding of the message they are sending out, either that, or they don't care! They could take an example from the Police - but they won't! A high visibility police presence reduces crime - there is no need for "Stop and Search" if crime reduction is the real aim(?). g environment it is designed to demonstrate control and give the civilian population confidence. The moment you set up road blocks (boarding parties) you reduce the support and sympathy of the civilian population as you are stopping them from going about their normal business and treating them as the enemy. Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan have all demonstrated this. Nevertheless perhaps we "yachties" have misunderstood the actions of the HMRC - their sole raison-detre is the collection of taxes so, perhaps, the message from the boarding parties really is "we don't give a **** - you are all the enemy".
[/ QUOTE ]
Been reading others responses and examining my own feelings about being boarded and overall I think you have summed it up rather well.
They were polite and as its my first experience of being boarded it aroused my curiosity but frankly if it happens again I will be a bit p*ssed off with it all as I am not doing anything wrong.
I would feel different if it was publicised that there had been many illegal immigrants captured or drugs discovered but the lack of publicity of these occuring as a result of random searches leads me to believe that true drug busts occur as a result of intelligence and these customs boardings are an unecessary intrusion into our freedom of the seas.
Its just that I don't see the justification for them but would happily change my mind if someone can produce some evidence of a benefit to the security of the UK.
Be interested in any informed opinions surely someone on here must work for customs.
savageseadog
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Sadly, whoever is running these operations ..................................
[/ QUOTE ]
The person that's running these operations is Gordon Brown, yes, he of the stealth tax. Put quite simply, GB want to spend more money that he's got. He leans on the head of HMRC and suggests that his knighthood and job is at risk if he doesn't meet this years increased target tax take. Said head of HMRC gets his people out to rattle a few cages.
It really is as simple as that.
Sadly, whoever is running these operations ..................................
[/ QUOTE ]
The person that's running these operations is Gordon Brown, yes, he of the stealth tax. Put quite simply, GB want to spend more money that he's got. He leans on the head of HMRC and suggests that his knighthood and job is at risk if he doesn't meet this years increased target tax take. Said head of HMRC gets his people out to rattle a few cages.
It really is as simple as that.
TiggerToo
Well-Known Member
I knew it was GB's fault. Just like the crap weather. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
maxi77
Well-Known Member
Theere can be no doubt that HMRC is first and foremost a revenue colection service. They also have a major role in preventing the import into the UK of certain products such as drugs as defined by the government. Today much of the 'Customs' work is intelligence led and it is often successful, but no intelligence system is perfect and there are always going to be those slip under the radar. Now whether we like it or not some of those who try to escape the clutches of HMRC use yachts and particulalry crowded areas like the Solent where tha bad lad hopes to be the proverbial needle in a haystack. Randon stop and searches are the main method used by almost all countries to deal with this problem so I suspect the consensus is it works.
I know being stopped is annoying, it used to happen to me regualrly travelling through Heathrow on my way home, but it was very much down to me fitting a profile. I now know why they used to stop me regulalrly but I wont tell any one what the main reason was, because it is still valid today.
I know being stopped is annoying, it used to happen to me regualrly travelling through Heathrow on my way home, but it was very much down to me fitting a profile. I now know why they used to stop me regulalrly but I wont tell any one what the main reason was, because it is still valid today.
Slow_boat
Well-Known Member
I bet you wouldn't help police solve crime either.
Then moan about crime.
Then moan about crime.
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Good point but we are not talking about crime but being randomly stopped and searched.
As a comparison.
How many pleasure sailing boats are used to import illegal drugs and illegal immigrants? What % of boats stopped are guilty of these things and what % of boats are stopped.
Now lets compare this with cars. How many cars are used by uninsured drivers/illegal immigrants/drug dealers/drug users/contain stolen property/drivers under the influence of drugsor drink.
Its only speculation but I suggest if the Police set up road blocks and stop the same % as Customs the success rate would be higher and our prisons fuller.
I think regretably that the offense of evading VAT/Taxes is a more seriious offence in this governments eyes and hence the effort. Its nothing to do with preventing crime or the security/safety of individuals.
As a comparison.
How many pleasure sailing boats are used to import illegal drugs and illegal immigrants? What % of boats stopped are guilty of these things and what % of boats are stopped.
Now lets compare this with cars. How many cars are used by uninsured drivers/illegal immigrants/drug dealers/drug users/contain stolen property/drivers under the influence of drugsor drink.
Its only speculation but I suggest if the Police set up road blocks and stop the same % as Customs the success rate would be higher and our prisons fuller.
I think regretably that the offense of evading VAT/Taxes is a more seriious offence in this governments eyes and hence the effort. Its nothing to do with preventing crime or the security/safety of individuals.
maxi77
Well-Known Member
Perhaps one of the reasons that few are caught is that they are discouraged by such random checks, though I for one have yet to be stopped by them though I have been stopped by the plod. Yes yachts are used a term mate of mine from Dartmouth did quite few years in various of her majesty's establishments after being cought with a ton or so of stuff he shouldn't have had. Whilst they are looking for tax evasion their main interest is drugs I suspect.
I find that those who suggest that the plods, customs or who ever should be looking for real criminals are just pissed of because some one elses proper and legitimate job interferes with their pleasure.
I find that those who suggest that the plods, customs or who ever should be looking for real criminals are just pissed of because some one elses proper and legitimate job interferes with their pleasure.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
This is getting a bit out of hand. How do you know the %age of boats being boarded? I would suggest it is tiny given the small number of customs cutters and the high level of boating movements. It cannot be compared with a road block. I dont see Searcher waiting in the Swash Channel stopping every boat entering Poole Harbour.
As to your suggestion that they are more concerned with VAT where is the basis for this comment? VAT offences are so narrowly defined and specific that random "checks" are not used. Indeed, there is no evidence that any private yachtsman has been subject to any penalty for a VAT offence. This is not to say that there have not been VAT offences where yachts have been involved, but they are not detected by random boarding of yachts at sea.
The reality is, as most people have commented, this is a PR exercise by an agency that is gaining increasing powers. At the moment there is no suggestion they are abusing these powers.
As to your suggestion that they are more concerned with VAT where is the basis for this comment? VAT offences are so narrowly defined and specific that random "checks" are not used. Indeed, there is no evidence that any private yachtsman has been subject to any penalty for a VAT offence. This is not to say that there have not been VAT offences where yachts have been involved, but they are not detected by random boarding of yachts at sea.
The reality is, as most people have commented, this is a PR exercise by an agency that is gaining increasing powers. At the moment there is no suggestion they are abusing these powers.
ChrisE
Well-Known Member
Indeed, when I asked the guys what they were looking for they said that they were looking for drugs and illegals, period. They did not ask to see any documentation other than our passports.
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
Same experience as me Chris.... very little interest in documentation, only interest in what we were carrying
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Wasting your time Duncan, it's just some of middle englands finest having a huffy! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
So we have the majority stating that they are randomly searching for drugs and illegals, i repeat the question with what success as I thought most drugs busts were intelligence led.
A few state that they are flying the flag due to increased powers then I object to being stopped and searched so that others can demonstrate their importance.
In my case they did seem interested in documentation.
End result is that we have various views of why they are doing it, not sure of any sucess rate, but we have to submit to being stopped and searched. As I said before I can accept that if there is a problem/crime that needs preventing I could accept this and state again that they were friendly and polite.
Last thought - what responsibility do I as skipper have if illegal drugs were found in a member of my crew's luggage?
Just interested in whether I should search all crews luggage before departure.
To make my personal position clear I deplore drugs and the effect that they and the resultant crime have on people and if it was down to me I would legalise them and encourage doctors to persuade people to have either treatment and cure or take an overdose. Not PC and totally unacceptible to the criminals!!
A few state that they are flying the flag due to increased powers then I object to being stopped and searched so that others can demonstrate their importance.
In my case they did seem interested in documentation.
End result is that we have various views of why they are doing it, not sure of any sucess rate, but we have to submit to being stopped and searched. As I said before I can accept that if there is a problem/crime that needs preventing I could accept this and state again that they were friendly and polite.
Last thought - what responsibility do I as skipper have if illegal drugs were found in a member of my crew's luggage?
Just interested in whether I should search all crews luggage before departure.
To make my personal position clear I deplore drugs and the effect that they and the resultant crime have on people and if it was down to me I would legalise them and encourage doctors to persuade people to have either treatment and cure or take an overdose. Not PC and totally unacceptible to the criminals!!
MarkJohnson12345
Well-Known Member
Can understand your views about legalizing the lot.
As a skipper, I think you might have the right and duty to check an unknown crews gear, or maybe get a declaration from them absolving you of their luggage.
But beware of unknown crew I guess.
As a skipper, I think you might have the right and duty to check an unknown crews gear, or maybe get a declaration from them absolving you of their luggage.
But beware of unknown crew I guess.
pmyatt
Well-Known Member
So basically we all accept that government departments can do what they like - but we have a sneaking suspicion that they are less than truthful about what they are doing and why - sounds a bit like MPs' expenses to me.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
that you would want to deny them access in the first place astonishes me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have been boarded at night by men in black with guns, showing no form of ID. They turned out to be Spanish customs but there was nothing at first to indicate we weren't about to be robbed.
I wonder what the reaction would be if, on being approached by armed men in a black RIB, you put out a DSC mayday with 'piracy' code.
On the other hand, you probably wouldn't argue with this lot (look what he's got on his foredeck)
that you would want to deny them access in the first place astonishes me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have been boarded at night by men in black with guns, showing no form of ID. They turned out to be Spanish customs but there was nothing at first to indicate we weren't about to be robbed.
I wonder what the reaction would be if, on being approached by armed men in a black RIB, you put out a DSC mayday with 'piracy' code.
On the other hand, you probably wouldn't argue with this lot (look what he's got on his foredeck)
pmyatt
Well-Known Member
It's not a gun but a water cannon - I believe(!)
maxi77
Well-Known Member
Our chums in customs are not exercising new powers at all rather they are exercising powers that date back the Chucky 1. You will find that should they feel the need that the customs have more powers of search and investigation without warrant than any other organisation.
Yes customs have been as they say inteligence led for many years, intellligence may have told them an un named yacht was going to land stuff that day, or they may just have been using the deterence value of very public stop and search to disuade boat owners from trying to pay for their hobby with a little bit of courier work.
Yes customs have been as they say inteligence led for many years, intellligence may have told them an un named yacht was going to land stuff that day, or they may just have been using the deterence value of very public stop and search to disuade boat owners from trying to pay for their hobby with a little bit of courier work.
