Best timber for Tiller

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tillergirl

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Just been out to Tiller Girl to find she has no tiller, or rather one in two pieces sheared inside the rudder stock! No sign of damage to rudder etc so its a bit of a mystery.

But, the old one is laminated iroko.

Questions

a. Laminated or solid. Which is stronger given that the solid would need some moderate shaping.
b. Best timber. Iroko can be a bit wild of grain. Does that affect strength.

Tiller is 6 foot in length and is approx 2" x 2" in section (4" x 4" in the rudder stock)

Advice gratefully received. Just going out to fit the emergency tiller - all galvanised water pipe gracefully shaped (of course) with a box section for the rudder stock. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
Properly made laminated will be stronger, and you can use different woods to make it look smart.

To be honest, with those dimensions I would expect that most good woods would be OK.

Mine is made from ash, which is extremely strong and resilient (Morgan chassis us/used it). It steam bends well, though I am not sure about steam bending that thickness.
 
New to boats but have been playing at woodwork! sawdust making for some time! Laminate alternating the grain and use good quality seawater proof glue- I use WUDCARE available from Axminster Tools Devon - cheaper than chandlery-all the Wudcare products are seawater proof! so they say. When you clamp,if using oak, cover in cling film as the metal of clamp will stain oak. I always make a mock up in soft wood and then mistakes dont matter. Good luck
 
Thank you all. If I made it from solid, it would have to be shaped from a larger piece. The flow of the laminations in the old one is attractive but it seems to have failed because of poor glueing of the laminants. Iroko does match the surrounding timber. Any more comments greatfully received.
 
Laminated alternating light and dark timber, ie. iroko or mahogany and pine or ash, glued with either resorcinol or epoxy, will produce a strong and attractive piece. Otherwise, carved oak or ash, with the grain running through the piece. This can be an enjoyable task!
 
I had to make a tiller for 'Malika', my boat before last. I had fitted her out in the garden from bare mouldings.

Recipe

1 half sheet of ( I think itwas) 3/16 or 1/4 ext grd ply.
Rip it down to 2in plus wide strips with the grain up/down the tiller.
Make up a 'base board' with either pin holes or suitable chocks and clamps to hold yr desired curve in place
Cover the whole thing in some builders plastic or SWMBOs grease proof paper to stop it sticking
Mix up yr Epoxy and butter it on as you lay the nice bendy cheap strips of ply on their sides into the shape you have set up either with the pins or chocks
Allow to dry but not so hard that you can't plane off the epoxy thats squeezed out.
Plane to desired nice tapering shape.

The entire job can be done in an hour or so, costs next to nothing and looks really great. The ply grain looks really nice on the side of the tiller and the whole thing is bomb proof.

This is a cheap option that doesnt look cheap, in fact my original tiller ( now under new ownership) is still in use 15 years later.

All best Nick
 
Mine's made of oak. Personally I don't like the look of alternate light and dark laminates. It looks as if the wood has been chosen for its visual appeal rather than its natural suitability. Unless you've got a really awkward curve lamination is unnecessary.Ash might be good, with its anti-shock qualities, but is prone to rot more than oak. Oak is strong, resistant to rot, and a piece the size you need won't cost too much. I wouldn't bother to try to steam it, just get a piece oversize and cut it on a band saw before hand finishing. Leave the handle unvarnished. To my eye oak looks great. It's a really good timber and looks the part.
Many thanks with your advice regarding my dynastart!
 
The current one has definately failed because the laminations were poorly glued exactly where the bolt goes through, so I'm dead keen to avoid that. It seems opinion is 50/50 for laminations or single piece. I guess I'll start by trying to see what timber I can get. Thanks to all contributors again.
 
In my humble opinion laminated timber is no way as good as solid timber no matter how good the glue .
You just need to look how many 3000+ year old trees there are .
In my opinion lamination is a cheap and easy way for a quick job and although effective will never take the place of a solid timber ..... having said all that woffle i have a great lump of old oak 2.1 x 70 x 125 plus other bits . Your bound to be able to make a tiller out of it .
 
Solid ash, no question

It is the traditional timber to use, for good reason:

1. It is the strongest readily available timber.

2. It is the most shock resistant readily available timber.

3. It is easy to come by in the right sizes

4. Should you need to, you can steam bend it.

5. It looks nice when varnished.

The drawback to ash is that it is not rot resistant in confined spaces. However, the only vessel I can think of with her tiller in a confined space is HMS VICTORY.
 
Not quite true - But a good try

[ QUOTE ]
It is the traditional timber to use, for good reason:

1. It is the strongest readily available timber.

2. It is the most shock resistant readily available timber.

3. It is easy to come by in the right sizes

4. Should you need to, you can steam bend it.

5. It looks nice when varnished.

The drawback to ash is that it is not rot resistant in confined spaces. However, the only vessel I can think of with her tiller in a confined space is HMS VICTORY.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ignoring Greenheart (which is just about available):

1) Opepe (Stocked by all timber merchants) 27.8 N/mm^2, Ash 17.2 N/mm^2

2) Karri (Commonly available): Mod/Elasticity: 13800 N/mm^2; Ash 7500 N/mm^2

3) European Ash is readily available for good timber merchants. You won't find it at B&Q!!!; Check the ring joint dimensions- Narrower is better; check for splits/shakes = too rapid kiln dried; Select timber to be even grained and knot free.

4) You can steam bend all timbers. Laminations tend to be made as it is much much cheaper and simpler to precisely bend and laminate (10mm thick strips) using Extramite-one-shot resin wood glue (It was called Cascamite) than it is to steam bend and hope that when it cools that the bend is correct - Steam bending is hit and miss.

5) IMO, varnish and wood don't go together. Wood, even when dead is a living substance - It breathes. When it is suffocated by varnish it will still try to breathe and eventually the varnish will fail/break at arrisses allowing moisture to get under the adjoining varnish making the ash not only go black but start to rot as well. If you want to add a finish to ash then rub in a mixture of 1/3rd beeswax, 1/3rd boiled linseed oil and 1/3rd turpentine once a month - It's a finish that when hand rubbed make wood look like real wood.

A looked after ash tiller won't rot - not even where where it mates with the stock - Rot requires a minimum of 21% pure water moisture content - Salt air inhibits rot as salt is deposited on the wood which kills destructive funghi (ie merulius lacrymans etc)

Anyway, Andrew is correct. Forest grown european ash will give you a solid tiller that will outlast anything laminated not because of what Andrew has said, but because it is the right timber for the job.

K
 
Re: Not quite true - But a good try

I love it when someone is opinionated/heartfelt/knowledgeable as I learn a great deal. I learn even more when people discuss their opinions in later posts as to correctness.

You sound like you have some wood knowledge, judging by the tensile strength/elasticity properties you mention. What is your background, and do you have more info on woods that you can share?
 
Re: Not quite true - But a good try

Thank you all again. Most useful. Ash seems the most popular 'vote' so far, so its going to be ash or oak. One thing seems certain - Iroko is not the best? I would rather shape from solid, the shape is not extreme after all but I'm not sure about trying to shape up some old oak - won't that be very tough work. This is going to be spokeshave work I suspect after the basic shape is cut. Seaspray, your piece of oak is just a little shy of what I need, the measurements above are a little casual. I need 75mm x 75mm but perhaps I could come back to you?

Thank you all again
 
Re: Not quite true - But a good try

Background _ 1) I'm old. 2) I learned my wood by wrecking at Woolacombe in the 1940s/50s - Then every piece of wood that came ashore from the wrecks of the Atlantic convoys was treasured and used for the best purpose according to condition of the wood. My tutor, an ex-WWII MTB gunner made me make my tools which involvolved learning smithying as well!!! (Still can temper a nail /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) ... Still can steam, bend, lime and ammonia fume oaks .... It's all good fun.

Slow grown ash is a wonderful wood - It will tolerate whatever abuse you throw at it: once bent it will stay bent etc. It will rot under a precise set of conditions. Fortunately sea water and good old sunshine preserve ash.
 
Don\'t go for oak

If you are going to use Iroko and your tiller is curved then make a rough ground out of laminated strips no more than 10mmm depth using Extramite One shot as the binding glue providing you scarify/distress the bonding surfaces (along the grain) and then de-oil the Iroko with keytone prior to glueing.

Out of solid, use ash or iroko or any African/S. American/SE Asian hardwood that is hard ie NOT teak --- Sorry. Don't use oak as it has a life of its own: it will warp, twist, split etc .... Go for the knotfree even close grained mahogonys. Select your piece of timber well - Go to a real timber merchant where you can smell the hardwoods and where one of their operatives will take delight in telling you all about 'his' woods /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm no expert. It's just that I've lived a life of wood /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Don\'t go for oak

Not even a 70 year old well seasoned piece of English oak ?
If you can use it your welcome to it ,i got it from an old building , it used to be a door frame .
 
The reason why old oak will move

Oak secretes oils and tannins that effectively waterproof the surface. If you take an old piece of oak and rework it you are exposing new unweathered surfaces. Before the oils and tannins can re-exude and oxidise, the wood will think that it is 'green' again and move 'till it re-sets according to its temper.

You can test this: Take a piece of say 3" x 2" x 4' oak and leave it outside on a couple of bricks for 6 to 8 months. Then rework it to make it untwisted and leave it outside for just one month ... and it will be more twisted, fractured etc than it was before.

Oak is best used green under compression to mature naturally. cf York Cathedral.
 
Re: The reason why old oak will move

I understand that in new kiln dried timbers but was under the impression old timbers that had been air dried and then set in place . (so still laid to season in theory) for another say seventy years would have lost most of its tendacy to move when remilled .
 
Re: The reason why old oak will move

Not being very well versed in timbers I have found this thread very interesting. From that position of little knowledge I would like to ask a question - note that I am not suggesting this timber as a solution to TillerGirl's post.

In my dinghy sailing days (quite some time ago now /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif) we used to use Hickory for tillers. I understand this is a timber particulalrly suited for the handles of striking tools (eg hammers, axes, sledge hammers, etc) and we used to buy the replacement handles of the larger tools as a readily available source of timber.

Does anyone have any comment on hickory in boat applications? Durability, stability, etc. - a quick internet search did not turn up much. Not sure if it is even readily available in UK (I am in NZ) as I think it is only endemic to North America, but stand to be corrected on that.

John
 
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