Best downwind sail?

[West Coast]

Hi, I have a jeanneau SO 439, performance version with larger overlapping Genoa. Had the boat for 2 seasons now. Only sails are main and Genoa.

Am thinking of a downwind sail for lighter conditions. My last boat had a spinnaker, but I often sail lightly crewed and found I rarely used the spinnaker, put off by all the ropes and faff with the pole etc. I need something simpler!

Aware there are many simpler options available but bit confused should I be looking for a Code 0 type sail? Advice pls!

 

[dom]

Code 0s are really a rules-restricted racing sail although many use he term more freely these days and one can certainly buy non-race versions. In any event they are at heart a close winded sail, so not really suitable.

What you probably want is a cruising assy that can go reasonably well down to say 150 degrees in winds up to F3/4 (?). You can set it traditionally, using a top down furler (pricey), or with a snuffer (many hate them, not me!). This sail will transform your light weather sailing performance and turn boring evenings listening to a whirring donk into beautiful sunset sails

As for cut, personally I’d ask a sailmaker you trust with knowledge of your boat.

 

[Neil_Y]

Get another genoa a No2 and roll them together. You still need a pole (or it helps) but you have a quickly adjustable sail and no need for the main.

Ultimately the Spinnaker should be the best option though and used in light winds it's not that much in terms of strings. You can run single guy/sheets and run them through tweekers if you are planning or want to gybe. Then it's just a pole up and down.

 

[flaming]

Ultimately the Spinnaker should be the best option though and used in light winds it's not that much in terms of strings.

Completely agree. Whilst a cruising chute might be a bit easier, the big issue with them is being able to run deep, which is really when most cruisers look into the locker for a sail to help out....

You can run single guy/sheets and run them through tweekers if you are planning or want to gybe. Then it's just a pole up and down.

You certainly cannot if you are dip pole gybing, which you surely must be on a 43 foot boat...

All that said... If the OP is really against spinnakers, then a furling A-sail (or cruising chute, depending on what sort of cut you want) set off a short extendable bowsprit is the next best solution.

 

[bedouin]

The simplier solution is a asymmetric / cruising chute or a big gennaker (all really different versions of the same sail) along with either a furler or a snuffer. That would operate almost like an oversized genoa.

Will still struggle a bit dead down wind but should be able to sail pretty deep with that sort of set up.

If you have a spinnaker pole you can always set an asymmetric from that if you really need to be on a dead run.

 

[geem]

We sail a 44ft yacht with just me and the wife. We have an asymmetric spinnaker. We only ever set it on the pole. We use a snuffer. We never attempt to gybe with it, we just snuff it and then rig on the opposite side but rarely even do this. We only use a two line system. Its very simple and gives a huge speed advantage ddw. We have friends with an identical boat. They use a Parasail. We ‘blow’ them away with the asymmetric when cruising in company. They have recently taken to setting the parasail on a pole with the main up goose-winged for ddw. At all the additional cost you have to wonder why they have a Parasail.

 

[Iain C]

I'd agree with Flaming 100%. I have a fractional North cruising chute, short removable carbon pole and a snuffer, and I use it at every opportunity, even single handed. I know there are many haters of the snuffer, but any disadvantages IMHO are very easily offset by the ability to pull a piece of string and very very quickly "kill" the sail. Even once the top 30% is snuffed it's now no longer a sail and develops no power. Once snuffed, you don't even have to drop it on deck if you have a big windshift/emergency/gybe/squall situation.

However I would say that it is much more limited in useability/angles compared to symmetrical kite, and I'd really like to find one of them too at some point. I'd still have a snuffer regardless.

I would however disagree with those that say you can't run with them...you can of course goosewing, although you need to be "on it" with your steering and swept spreaders/fractional rigs don't help. Or, you can sail the angles and gybe downwind. But...it depends on your views on the effort/fun/speed ratio. I once needed to sail from Cowes to Gilkicker...it was a dead run. A mate was in a Sigma 33, with just his genoa up, running DDW. I was in a Bavaria 32, full main and cruising chute, and somewhat predictably every time I crossed him it was just behind his transom after about 5 gybes. OK, so we were probably sailing a bit higher than needed and having more fun, and the S33 is faster than a B32, but we were putting in a lot more effort and distance sailed to basically do exactly the same thing!

 

[Seajet]

In a perfect world you could have a light asymmetric chute on a furler ahead of the normal forestay on a short retractable sprit ( so slightly slack the rest of the time, requiring judgement re foil length ), this would be really handy - still needs poling out if dead downwind - otherwise I'd just keep it simple and have a cruising asymmetic handy - a tri radial cut should make it able to go closer to the wind when required, say up to a close reach.

 

[duncan99210]

We’ve got a simple cruising chute and snuffer. I’ve looked at a furler but the cost was excessive (like five or six time the cost of the snuffer). If we’re nit likely to need to gybe, we only rig a single sheet; for longer trips likely to need a gybe, we rig both sheets and gybe by letting the chute fly right forward. It takes practice but is very satisfying when it works....
Never bothered to pole out, the chute is enough of a drama queen in terms of wind angles, so we take the distance penalty rather than working hard hand steering to maintain a full chute ddw.
I’ve sailed with a Code 0 on a sprit and furler: it was easier to manage than the chute and would point upwind whereas the chute won’t. But from our point of view as cruisers with nowhere to go in a hurry, the expense of fitting a bowsprit, buying a Code 0 and furler isn’t worth it.

 

[englishrobs]

Having spent four days over the long recent bank holiday weekend off the East Coast in glorious weather but light winds our asymmetric cruising chute became the sail of choice on our Contessa 32. We sailed it from 50 degrees all the way down to 180, even goosewinged with the main. I've used it plenty before but this was the first more extended period where we had reason to use it through so many angles. It made a huge difference to our progress and significantly improved our boat speed over others on the water who did not have one. We use a snuffer on ours and an ATN tacker.

 

[geem]

We’ve got a simple cruising chute and snuffer. I’ve looked at a furler but the cost was excessive (like five or six time the cost of the snuffer). If we’re nit likely to need to gybe, we only rig a single sheet; for longer trips likely to need a gybe, we rig both sheets and gybe by letting the chute fly right forward. It takes practice but is very satisfying when it works....
Never bothered to pole out, the chute is enough of a drama queen in terms of wind angles, so we take the distance penalty rather than working hard hand steering to maintain a full chute ddw.
I’ve sailed with a Code 0 on a sprit and furler: it was easier to manage than the chute and would point upwind whereas the chute won’t. But from our point of view as cruisers with nowhere to go in a hurry, the expense of fitting a bowsprit, buying a Code 0 and furler isn’t worth it.

What type of boat do you sail? We sail ddw with a poled out asymmetric using the autopilot steering to wind angle. Works perfectly. With only the two of us on board, the autopilot is the essential third crew. I have never felt the need to take over from the autopilot. If conditions are brisk, I do turn up the response on the control unit

 

[lw395]

For a boat that size, shorthanded I would first look for a big, lightweight cruising chute.
It's primarily for light airs, so heading up to fill the kite is not adding huge distance.
This is the sail that will change a passage from motoring DDW in very little apparent wind to a couple of fun reaches with the apparent wind near the beam.
I would want a fairly full sail which will 'rotate' to windward of the centreline reasonably well. Plenty of luff curve.

If you want to make fast downwind passages in F4 and above, then look for a proper symmetric spinnaker.
If you want to reach high and fast, then a smaller a-sail with a straighter luff might be what you want.

 

[dom]

Ultimately the Spinnaker should be the best option though and used in light winds it's not that much in terms of strings. You can run single guy/sheets and run them through tweekers if you are planning or want to gybe. Then it's just a pole up and down.

When sailing two-up with the wife I find dip poling just too hectic and would certainly not try it in crowded waters -- smallest spi is around 150m^2. I personally find any assy so much easier. End-for-ending is a good idea, though I'd have to swing by 'Monkey Heaven' in the IoW first to borrow one of their big lads

As this topic often comes up; do people seriously set big spis sailing light handed in crowded waters in non-racing conditions as a matter of routine?

 

[flaming]

As this topic often comes up; do people seriously set big spis sailing light handed in crowded waters in non-racing conditions as a matter of routine?

Yes. Of course having a racing background helps, but I'll happily throw up a kite shorthanded inside the solent for example. And I have also been known to carry one up the Orwell in a 48 footer, gybing off Levington.

 

[dom]

Yes. Of course having a racing background helps, but I'll happily throw up a kite shorthanded inside the solent for example. And I have also been known to carry one up the Orwell in a 48 footer, gybing off Levington.

Jibing up the Orwell light handed, not bad! Perhaps I just find the faff of setting up for dip poling a PITA, simply on the basis of wandering around the boat rigging all those lines and then taking them all off again later.

What I would say though - as everyone who races knows well - big spis with big poles can quickly build up dangerous forces: 10-12kts is Pimms time, 12-14kts fun, 14-16kts getting exciting, while 16-20kts is really going some. Light handed is fine, but one really really needs to know how to - and have practiced - safely getting rid of the kite as the wind builds. When it comes to jibing, it's probably best to get used to it first either on the track, or on a well crewed yacht. We've all for example seen yachts following the daft old advice of holding the boat dead downhill with the airflow reversing upon every roll, the spi all over the place, and the white-knuckled crew hanging on for dear life :ambivalence:

Same applies to assys with or without snuffers/rollers; well worth practicing drops the old fashioned way as a safe and secure Plan B.

 

[dunedin]

The key question for the OP with a 44 foot boat, small crew and sailing West Scotland is ........... what are you confident you can drop safely when the wind suddenly gets up from 10-12knots to 20-25knots. Because it will in Scotland!
If the crew is family it only takes one fright to put people off for a very long time.

A “code zero” type furling asymmetric is easiest to get rid of when you need to (and can be left up but furled till back in harbour), but may give limited benefit over the genoa.
A top down furling asymetric is probably the next category up, allowing a bit more sail area.

Unless can budget for carbon poles etc a symmetric spinnaker, even with snuffer, may prove too hard work and rarely get out of the locker except for fully crewed “mates cruises” or longer delivery trips

 

[geem]

The key question for the OP with a 44 foot boat, small crew and sailing West Scotland is ........... what are you confident you can drop safely when the wind suddenly gets up from 10-12knots to 20-25knots. Because it will in Scotland!
If the crew is family it only takes one fright to put people off for a very long time.

A “code zero” type furling asymmetric is easiest to get rid of when you need to (and can be left up but furled till back in harbour), but may give limited benefit over the genoa.
A top down furling asymetric is probably the next category up, allowing a bit more sail area.

Unless can budget for carbon poles etc a symmetric spinnaker, even with snuffer, may prove too hard work and rarely get out of the locker except for fully crewed “mates cruises” or longer delivery trips

It probably depends on the crew. As a husband and wife team we use aluminium poles on the same size boat. The poles stow on twin tracks on the mast so we are only dealing with one lose end. The difference may be that we are comfortable working on the foredeck of our flush decked boat. We do all our mainsail reefing at the mast so being on deck is normal for us.
We have had to drop our 1700sqft spinnaker in winds over 20kts. Technique is important to avoid mishaps. On one occasion we used the rope drum on the windlass to assist in snuffing the spinnaker.

 

[[3889]]

FWIW, I use a symmetric on a 36' AWB as it is what I have but would prefer a cruising chute (high cut clew) for less faff. My friend's similar boat with a chute sails about 160deg without issue and my own VMG maxes out around there.

 

[dom]

FWIW, I use a symmetric on a 36' AWB as it is what I have but would prefer a cruising chute (high cut clew) for less faff. My friend's similar boat with a chute sails about 160deg without issue and my own VMG maxes out around there.

One can sail an assy goose winged about 10 deg by the lee. If the airflow settles over the main the sail can do very well. Or just pole it out. Or just fly a symmetric to the polars as you say.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

In my experience, the most robust method for downwind is a full cut asymmetric cruising shute using a snuffer. There are good and bad snuffers; snuffers with a wide collar are fast to use and great for single-handed. Some snuffers are absolutely pain to use. The cruising chute can also be set for downwind run