Best cat for a long trip

Here's a thought Kingfisher. When you have made a decision about which vessel, size, layout etc: it may pay you to search International sales on the net or even fly out to the Pacific Islands, because every year large numbers of folk 'boldly go' from the States on their dream voyages. A certain number frighten the bejazus out of themselves and jump on an aeroplane to return home and take up caravanning. You may find you get a real bargain and at least you will know it is capable of an ocean crossing. If I could have sailed two boats at once I could have got a couple of nice bargains in the Caribbean in 2007, one was an ex-ARC and the other was 'I want a divorce, I'm going home'..Both desperate to sell.. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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It is a problem that needs to be thought about but most cats are so light, and the after end of the bridgedeck so high that the sterm would lift to anything other than a huge breaker before being pooped.

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We were pooped while running at about 10 knots in 30 knots of wind. I didn't see the sea that did it but the 'Oh S***' look on the faces of those who saw it coming was enough. It sent a cascade in through the door and doused the cook but with around 25 square inches of drains the cockpit cleared pretty quickly.
 
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, because every year large numbers of folk 'boldly go' from the States on their dream voyages. A certain number frighten the bejazus out of themselves and jump on an aeroplane to return home and take up caravanning.

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Yup, that is what I will be looking for. It's like houses actually. Here in Brussels, the best deals are diplomats leaving and the property needs to sell, and couples starting a project and then separating. It's a bit unsavory but maybe better than if nobody buys their property.
 
As regards the construction, balsa should be avoided below the waterline and no modern builder of any repute would consider it as it absorbs moisture and rots. Many production monohulls use it for stiffening decks and the inevitable water ingress over time causes really big problems. The reason for using balsa rather than foam is cost. Proper foam costs as much as marine ply.

Occasionally in the past, polyurethane foam has been used as a core and it breaks down and absorbs many times its own weight of water. For that reason it has not been used as a core material for many years. The correct foam to use is PVC closed cell foam, e.g. Airex which does not absorb water and can be used below waterline with no risk whatever. A sandwich with the same stiffness as solid laminate weighs less than half.
 
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In order of importance:,
1. deck space
2. level sailing,
3. space at anchor,
4. speed.



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FWIW and after ownership we would put the main advantages as:
1/ ride quality ie level
2/ stability in an anchorage (wash etc)
3/ light and airy
4/ ease of moving about inside.

Speed? Well in most cruising cats you can count on maybe 15% maybe 25% greater average (all points inc motoring) than a similar length mono cruiser.

Every cruising cat I've sailed on struggles hard on the wind in any sort of sea and that can be a real problem.

Space is a plus but weight is an issue. How do you stop SWMBO filling the space and reducing performance to dog standard?

Size is a problem. A 40 ft modern cat with a 20 ft beam is a big beast to moor and a PITA to keep clean / antifoul etc. Mine seemed to be the equivalent of 2 1/2 monos of the same length though no doubt someone will tell me thats wrong.

lastly, when in a marina it doesnt jhalf p*ss you off to be charged the same for your 40ft cat as the guy further on has paid for his 80 ft mono.

I'd still always take a cat for what you're planning but the pros and cons are never spo clear as the enthusiasts tell you.
 
Third reply First page of this thread from me links to that site /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
you "lakesailoring barstewards"
 
Not quite correct as Schoening, (spelling) designs in Duracore wich is a balsa core. Indeed next time you are at the multihull centre look for tony's Backlash 2. That is one, very strong and light.
Very easy material to build with, indeed 2 of us built it in 1 year, from scratch.
 
Right again Leopard, and frankly I would rather get pooped and watch the water go quickly down the cockpit drain that have the sea lift my transom and pitchpole me, which won't happen very easily with your boat or mine but the very light french tarts with wide transoms and exessive beam will (and have) turned turtle that way in heavy weather. Thats why I made the comments I did. Extreme beam, wide very bouyant transoms, and patio doors are all IMHO absolutely wrong for a blue water boat. At one time it was "fashionable" to have lots of reserve bouyancy in the bows of a cat to prevent pitchpoling. Now there is little or none and loads of bouyancy aft. Again IMHO people who sail these boats have more interest in enormous double staterooms in the boats quarters than they do in surviving a storm.
 
I partly agree Leopard but even closed cell foam can delaminate under stress as its mechanical strength is very low. You also have a danger of it not being fully vacuum pressed to the outer skin when manufactured and leaving voids which is asking for "boat pox" later in life. Trust me, I have spent half my working life in the industry and have seen many instances of this and its the devils own job to repair when it happens. If you have a well designed boat with closed cell foam below the WL and if you also have one that was well built by a good yard it's OK I agree. There are many that don't fall into that catagory though. If it's a racing machine I wouldn't argue, but for a cruising boat solid laminate below the WL adds so little weight and what it does add is in the right place, that I think it outweighs the risks.
 
Yea that's precisely the problem! Anyone with a damp cold shed a bucket and a roller can build one that way! I hope I am not insulting you however as your name seems to indicate that like me you have "done your time" and know what needs to be done to do a "proper job". Unfortunately the " build it upside down on frames " method using foam and or balsa can produce either a very nice boat or a complete dog. How does the amateur know the difference when buying second hand?
 
Certainly there is a problem with sandwich if not built well. A friend went to see Team Phillips during construction and said the quality of laminating was very poor so when the bows broke because the skin wasn't bonded to the core it was no surprise. I'd be very surprised if the same sort of quality control error happened in a well-run modern yard. Of course there are still a few dodgy outfits surviving.

Your reference to 'very light' French boats surprises me though. A Fontaine Pajot 40 weighs in at 6 tonnes empty; my Kelsall 40 is 5.5 tonnes fully loaded!

One concern I have about hull forms is the forward-sloping transoms with their tendency to dig in if the boat stalls and starts going backwards. I built a 39' tri in the 70s and another builder working on the same design built a scale model and tried to capsize it. The only way he could get it to tip was by stalling when close-hauled in a heavy sea, going astern down the face of a wave, digging in the stern of the lee float then tipping over the diagonal. Bill Howells managed to capsize Tahiti Bill in the same way.
 
A thought you might wish to consider. I recently met some cruisers who had just bought a Voyager 44 (probably out of your budget). One of their deciding factors was that the engines were in a separate compartment - not directly under the aft bunks. The engines were accessable from the transom steps. For them such a configuration was essential - to keep the diesel smell out of the boat.

I have sailed on cats with both configurations, and agree the transom access keeps the diesel smell out of the aft cabins.

But. I wonder whether there are safety implications? I am pretty sure I would not want to deal with an engine problem in rough weather by opening up the transom steps and getting in. You would be quite exposed while opening the steps and getting in. Probably safe while actually in and doing the work, but with a risk of the engine compartment being swamped (if steps left open) or dark and limited ventilation if closed.

Any others with experience of this aspect of cats?
 
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2 persons
budget round about 250K
nothing over 48ft


[/ QUOTE ]You can have my 30ft Iroquois for a little under 250K. Special reduced price because of the recession.

pm me for details.

Paul.
 
It is reputed that South Africa produces more cats per year than any other country. Unfortunately, this means that there will be a rogue or two in the industry. With that in mind, avoid anything built by Eric Schoeman and the various names that his companies change too each time he goes bankrupt. He built the Wildcat, Jaguar, Royal Cape Catamaran and a few others that I cannot recall at the moment. Also avoid the SA built Prout (now called Proud), the older Deans and anything built by Ravin.

IMHO, the reputable builders are Roberson & Caine (Fatipa may disagree), Admiral, Maxim (now closed down), Voyage, Two Oceans, St Francis and perhaps Knysna Boats and Custom Marine (but those two haven't been around long enough to have a decent track record yet).

There are plenty of 2nd hand cats about at the moment and it is a seriously good buyers market at the moment eg Robertson & Caine were doing in excess of 200 cats per year and the order book (Moorings Charter) has been slashed down to 40 boats for next year. They've just moved and upgraded their factory, so are more than willing to offer incredible deals on new boats.
 
I can attest to the quality and design of the St Francis which would be on my lst for this type of sailing. Cant (or wont) comment on the others although certain names ring bells /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I am always careful not to criticise too vociferously as I have been a consultant to many. I would say you seem to have done a thorough job of research though.....
 
Yes I agree Leopard. I was trying not to name names but light for a cat is of course good assuming everything else is right.
I like the design of yours (just to get that out of the way) and your 5.5 tonnes (unladen presumably?) would mean that you steam past me in my heavy old Prout. Both are very good sea boats though for different reasons and safe blue water cruisers. Some of the French boats are relatively lightly built, others (not all cos the Privelege is excellent) seem to combine all the worst features of the other lightweight ones with high weight. Worst of all worlds!
Oh yeh... sailing backwards is good too in my old goose as the hull form is entirely symmetric. I can actually sail backwards quite efficiently and surprised onlookers by "backing out" of an anchorage like that last year! I do however totally agree about "steps down" transoms though. Especially wide ones. Broadblue do this too but they are relatively narrow and probably not so much of a problem. Not as good as my pointy ones though!
 
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