Best cat for a long trip

kingfisher

kingfisher

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When I decide to get out of this rat race, I want to do it in a cat: buy one on the USA west coast, and then sail the pacific (the Atlantic is soo done). What would be the best cat for this epic voyage?

2 persons
budget round about 250K
nothing over 48ft

First idea: Lagoon 420 hybrid
 
Suggest you also post on the Liveaboard forum. Know it is dual posting but you might get better (if slower) responses
 
Your limit of 48' is pretty big. If you're buying new, 38' is about the most you'd get for your money. I would say 42' is the max you could possibly want for 2 people. Ours is 40' and has way more space that we could ever fill. OTOH don't go to the other end of the spectrum so the boat is jam-packed with gear as the weight would become a problem.

There are a few dogs out there in terms of build quality. I believe Stingo could tell you which ones to avoid. Beyond that there's not too much to choose between modern production boats in terms of performance so go for one with a price and layout to suit your tastes. Any of the current designs over say 30' are fit for sailing in the tropics out of the TRS seasons. If going into higher latitudes you might want to be a bit more picky.

If you want to compare performance there are a few formulae that give an idea of relative speeds based on LWL, displacement, sail area and engine HP. Let me know if you want them and I'll dig them out.
 
Snowleopard, don't go through too much effort, this is just an exercice in "what if". I just want a basic overview of what is available in that world. I will be buying second hand, preferably somthing halfway equiped. My experience with cats so far was a 5-day charter of a lagoon 380. I loved it, allthough somewhat in the "floating caravan" category, instead of the "go anywhere" boat, I think.
 
As an ex cat owner and based on nothing more scientific than looking at them at boat shows, I would not take one of the cheap French cats on that sort of journey. I'd go (and I know its unfashionable) for one of the Prouts or their successors. Just like I would chose an HR rather than a Benny for the same purpose in monos.

There's a world of difference between a cruising cat and one made for the charter market.
 
A few names
Catana, Le Rouge designs (is it the "Frejdis") Outremmer, Privilege, Dazcats ~ All look interesting as well thought out "performance cruisers " Some possibly fit price wise I would guess 2nd hand.
 
It would probably help if you said why you want a cat - speed, level sailing, space at anchor, deck space etc. For example you probably wouldn't want a Prout snowgoose if you were after speed or a Fontaine Pajot if you like traditional British woodwork.

Don't be put off by the likes of FP with their acres of bare GRP. Lots of wood gives the impression of solidity but it is entirely false - the strength is in the glass. Most modern production boats are plenty strong enough for normal sailing.

For tropical sailing it's a good idea to have accommodation that opens up to the cockpit. A good example is the Lagoon. Small doors designed to keep British rain out are no use to you in the tropics.

You'll have to decide whether you want galley & charts 'up' i.e. on the bridge deck. Personally I chose charts up, galley down but a lot of people like the galley up.

Twin diesels are best for performance and manoeuvrability but add weight and can get in the way of the accommodation. Outboards are best avoided. There are single-engine options using either twin hydraulic motors or a long leg mounted centrally. Both have disadvantages but there is a saving on weight and space.

Most cats have fractional rigs with large fully-battened mains. These are not necessarily ideal if you plan to do most of your sailing downwind in the trades but are good for reaching.

I would never tolerate dagger boards but there is no doubt they improve performance. They can contribute to capsize in big seas. Most cruisers opt for low-aspect ratio keels which give limited upwind performance but are good for drying out, especially if you have keel shoes.

Double berths in the ends of the hulls can be a bit of a pain if your legs and hips are showing signs of age as they are awkward to get into.
 
Alliaura Privelege 495 but 45 is similar and might be cheaper although some surprising bargains to be had other side of atlantic. The boats (built in France at Les Sable d'Olonne) have a sturdier appearance than the Lagoon - although I'm sure the Lagoon's windows are reinforced, they still look vulnerable to me. The Privelege cat sails quite beautifully ...
 
Lots of good advice from Snowgoose and I agree with all of it, except his comments about daggerboards and stability. A very safe storm configuration for a cat is to have the windward board half down and the leeboard fully raised. Then, if the cat begins to tip, as soon as the windward board clears the water the boat will start to slip sideways rather than trip over the board. I must admit this is the theory. I have no experience of the practice.

As far as choice is concerned, I would consider the 40ft mark to be about right for two people cruising. Bigger boats, over, say, 45 to 48ft can be managed but everything is that much bigger and heavier and you will begin to find many smaller harbours are just too tight for comfort.

In dream mode I would want more performance, on all points of sailing, than the average cruising cat can offer so the current top of my wish list is the Outremer 42. This is, though, a bit purist and may prove a handful for two, and you would certainly be losing accommodation. The Catana 410 offers a bit more accommodation and a bit less speed. The Dazcat 12 is a great balance of speed and comfort but would certainly break your budget.

In reality mode I have to admit that comfort, convenience and cost would probably direct me towards one of the popular production boats. I like the Lagoons but I would choose a Lagoon 410 ahead of the later 420. The 410 is, in my view a much better sailing boat and I prefer the accommodation too. When I tested the 420 the hybrid power system was far from sorted and I am not convinced it is sufficiently reliable for blue water sailing. The 380/381 is equally good but in a slightly smaller and cheaper package. Don't dismiss the Broadblues, either. They are well built, substantial and comfortble and will get you round the Trade Wind zones faster and more comfortably than most monos, but not, of course, than most cats.
 
In order of importance:,
1. deck space
2. level sailing,
3. space at anchor,
4. speed.

"For tropical sailing it's a good idea to have accommodation that opens up to the cockpit. A good example is the Lagoon. Small doors designed to keep British rain out are no use to you in the tropics."
I always laughed at boats with conservatory doors (mostly mobos), but I totally got it on the Lagoon. But how does it stand up in evil weather?

"You'll have to decide whether you want galley & charts 'up' i.e. on the bridge deck. Personally I chose charts up, galley down but a lot of people like the galley up."
Charts and galley up, I think. I imagine that a galley up is difficult to use on passage? But I'm also asuming that long distance sailors spend most of their time at anchor?

Motorisation:
I'm curious about the hybrid system of lagoon. It makes so much sense. However, it has teething problems? And is suitable for long distance cruising?

"Most cats have fractional rigs with large fully-battened mains. These are not necessarily ideal if you plan to do most of your sailing downwind in the trades but are good for reaching."
But can you fly a spi attached to both hull points?

"I would never tolerate dagger boards but there is no doubt they improve performance. They can contribute to capsize in big seas. Most cruisers opt for low-aspect ratio keels which give limited upwind performance but are good for drying out, especially if you have keel shoes."
Drying out is a main plus point

"Double berths in the ends of the hulls can be a bit of a pain if your legs and hips are showing signs of age as they are awkward to get into. "
Haven't actually spent much time on interior options
 
There is an account of a Kelsall cat in my edition of Heavy Weather sailing. It had sliding patio doors and the owner was very worried about them. In the event they never got hit by more than a bit of spray in survival conditions.

I don't know anything about the hybrid propulsion system. I came across one with a single engine and 2 hydraulic drives. When you stopped one prop the other ran at double speed so quite entertaining - for onlookers!

You can fly a spinnaker from both bows. Another option is to set a second genoa from a masthead stay and fly twins. Personally I'm more than happy with my rotating unstayed rig - I only carry 2 sails and use them on all points of sailing but you won't get that option on a production boat. The large mains on cats can usually only go out a short way because of swept-back shrouds.

The ideal bed layout is as seen in a lot of fore cabins on monos these days where you can both get in and out over the side of the bed. That option is hard to arrange on a cat because of the narrow hulls. The big Prouts have athwartship doubles extending onto the bridgedeck but they mean the one person having to climb over the other. The best arrangement I have seen was on an older Prout where the berth was in front of the saloon on the bridgedeck and you climbed in over the foot so either can get out without disturbing the other.
 
The outboard steering position is for visibility in the same way as twin wheels on a mono give you a better view of the sails. Leave it to the racers and day sailers and stick to a wheel in the cockpit out of wind, spray and sun. And while on the subject, it's absolutely essential when sailing in the tropics to have the helmsman protected from the sun.
 
We did the same appraisal 2 years ago, before realism set in and we were thinking smaller and more local;buying a Commanche in the ned for Canal work as well.
I have a friend in the Caribean in a Prout 33' who have been out there for ages, well 5 years or so. They have plenty of guests and also move around quite a bit. They report loads of charter cats taking up all the space available, and not having a particularly high reputation so watch what you buy. [We first sailed there in the late 60s together]
With so much dosh to spend, I'd go for the Deans from S Africa, they will have already been well tested in delivery to that part of the world, and so long as you can accept the swept back rig, give a lot of usuable space for your buck. The comfort of having two engines,[with two alternators] is most reassuring and also makes for being very manouvrable.
Hope this helps and feel th enevy of all on the forum when you realise the dream.
 
There is no such thing as a perfect boat (even if it is a cat)
Personally, although I own a Prout I would think for your budget there is a great deal of choice. I agree Priv's are nice but think for 2 people you dont need anything bigger than 38 although I think they do a 42 which is quite superb. There are several boats built in SA and the Antipodes which are worth a look too. I would however advise against any boat that has foam core or balsa below the waterline, any that have a very high bridge position, any that have exessively wide transoms, overly wide beam/OAL ratios and yes I don't like damn great patio doors either. OK for summer sailing in reasonable conditions but not for riding out a tropical storm!
Best thing to do is to look yourself and then post again for opinions of what you see. Personally the super lightweight French boats are IMHO not the best for ocean cruising. Speed has never been a priority with me though. Survival is!!
 
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I always laughed at boats with conservatory doors (mostly mobos), but I totally got it on the Lagoon. But how does it stand up in evil weather?


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It is a problem that needs to be thought about but most cats are so light, and the after end of the bridgedeck so high that the sterm would lift to anything other than a huge breaker before being pooped.

That said, vey large cockpit drains are a good idea and it is prudent to make some provision for reinforcing. blanking off or, at least, sealing the saloon doors in very heavy seas.

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Charts and galley up, I think.

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Once you get to 38 to 40ft I don't think there is any doubt that chart table and galley should be on the bridge deck. In hot climates the last thing you want to do is go deep into the hull to cook, while one of the great things about cats is being able to sit in the saloon/chart area and see what's going on around you. My 33 footer is a different animal and I have to put up with chart table and galley down as used to be the norm.

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But can you fly a spi attached to both hull points?


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Yes you can but the fully battened main will rest against the back stays once the wind is aft of the beam and is generally a pain and inefficient as well as very dangerous dead down wind unless you have a very powerful preventer. Best to take it down and run with just a spi or big asymmetric.

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Drying out is a main plus point


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Daggerboards give the shallowest draught and best drying out of all - provided the hull is suitable reinforced and protected and the rudders are designed for the job
 
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