Best action in a sudden strong gust

[johnalison]

Two excellent reasons that I don't like either coachroof-mounted mainsheets, or steering wheels on yachts

I can accept wheels, though I don't currently have one, but roof-mounted mainsheets seem to be positively dangerous. Although my boat doesn't round up significantly when overpressed it is my natural habit to uncleat the mainsheet and hold it in my hand when passing close to leeward of anything such as a moored boat in any weight of wind.

I disagree slightly with some of the answers in that to my mind the main priority is to keep the boat moving through the water. This is both to maintain control and because a heavy gust on flapping sails will actually make the boat heel more. If working to windward my normal response is to harden up on sheets to flatten the sails and aim to keep making a decent speed, if necessary, pinching a bit. This is hard to achieve in a heavy seaway, when I might bear away instead.

 

[john_morris_uk]

john_morris_uk

+1



But here I would stand with your children

Does this mean you like boats that misbehave when overpressed? Actually the GOM remark was a bit out of context in my post. What I was trying to admit was that I am old fashioned enough in my tastes to actively dislike and try to avoid sailing ill mannered modern boats that luff up uncontrollably when suddenly overpressed. The final insult is having wheel steering (which I don't mind in itself) but I do object to the combination of wheel and main sheet on coach roof. Especially when some of the mainsheet arrangements I've sailed with on boats rigged thus are difficult to ease in a hurry!

 

[dunedin]

On our Bav30 all the lines apart from the genoa sheets are on the coach roof and as such would require some quick gymnastic clambering to get around the wheel to make any adjustments to the main and of course this would entail leaving the helm at totally the wrong moment! So, unless I have someone dedicated to handling the sails we are stuck with reducing the effect of the gust by manoeuvring, hence my interest in comments on the original post i.e Luff up or bear away.

To my mind that is unseamanlike design /setup. It is important to be able to free the mainsheet if needed - eg to bear off behind a starboard tack boat. Very few boats will bear off safely in a wind without easing the main.
And you are missing the huge fun of playing the mainsheet in gusts on a fast reach, just like a dinghy (easily done with the right mainsheet setup on 36 footer).

And re the OP I am with the
- gently luff and/or ease sails when upwind
- bear away early and accelerate on reach or downwind
Puffing up downwind will generally make things worse

 

[Caer Urfa]

One of the yachts in question was a Bavaria 30. As this is the same boat I have, I was interested to hear their views - the consensus was that f4 was generally the maximum! Any views?

Cheers

Do they call themselves yachtsmen? F4 max and they have a 30' boat!

Unless it's about F4 I do not really bother going out! if I have F5-F6 I usually have an good days sail, BUT as other say I prepare the main and Genoa for the conditions.

Yes I have had sudden gusts and dump the main sheet then reduce the genoa is the first action, In general it's not the wind that worries me it's the sea state!

Maybe they bought the wrong boat
Mike

 

[Robert Wilson]

On my boat, the immediate action is to let out a load of mainsheet. In gusty weather I keep it in hand (weight held by the jammer) like a dinghy sailor, or at least hooked round the forward end of the tiller so I can reach it from anywhere in the cockpit.

Force 4 sounds like an absurdly low limit for a 30 footer to me, but it's none of my business if other people want to miss out on some good sailing

Pete

Sounds right to me. Especially the bit about "mainsheet in hand".
If sailing solo it's my only option. If with a crew I instruct them before we sail that if I shout "DUMP" then they quick-smart dump the jib/genoa sheets - but I still have the mainsheet under my control.
I keep a look out for cats' paws (and worse) all the time I'm out on the water.

As for "max wind strength, not to leave harbour" - too many variables on which to pontificate; but "lee shore" and "constrictions" would be top of my wary list.

 

[nimbusgb]

Last month I was out in 40 knot gusts on a 11.5m boat. Singlehanded with the main sheet on the coachroof and the genoa sheets cleated off. Getting too them in a hurry from the wheel in a hurry ...... Forget it.

The secret is to reef early and luff up or bear away as the conditions dictate.

Sit with the mainsheet or genoa sheets 'in-hand' .......... Impossible.

 

[dunedin]

Sit with the mainsheet or genoa sheets 'in-hand' .......... Impossible.

When alone in the cockpit I often run the mainsheet once round the windward genoa sheet winch, which is close to hand when steering sitting alongside (not behind) the wheel. This allows easing or pulling back in. Sometimes leave in the main cleat but just loop round the winch, which avoids the sheet dropping down to the lee side if get a gust

 

[Burnham Bob]

dump the main - that's the easy option on my boat with a tiller and a mainsheet easily accessible.

heel is instantly reduced, i don't find any tendency to round up or bear away due to the sail balance changing and the course is maintained

the advantage is that its instant

as to beaufort forces, depends on where we're supposed to be going. running would be okay in a 4-5, so would reaching with a reef in if its was a little more but beating into a headwind is no fun - especially when its wind over tide. sea state is important too so we walyas lsiten to the weather forecast - even though its reliability is a bit iffy - or so it seems these days

 

[William_H]

Sudden gusts

This may be of interest olewill
http://www.mysailing.com.au/news/seamanship-handling-heavy-weather

 

[cliff]

But there is this thing called 'reefing'. This is where you can put some of the sail away and then the boat will behave very well.

I too have heard rumours about this - mostly from BenBavJen owners - I always thought it was when they ran aground and knocked their keels off - was suprised to learn it was something to do with only putting out a little sail cloth in anything above F2 (or F1) to stop them tipping over

 

[onesea]

Does this mean you like boats that misbehave when overpressed? Actually the GOM remark was a bit out of context in my post. What I was trying to admit was that I am old fashioned enough in my tastes to actively dislike and try to avoid sailing I'll mannered modern boats that luff up uncontrollably when suddenly overpressed. The final insult is having wheel steering (which I don't mind in itself) but I do object to the combination of wheel and main sheet on coach roof. Especially when some of the mainsheet arrangements I've sailed with on boats rigged thus are difficult to ease in a hurry!

I have an old 3/4 tonner, so I cannot object to the occasional round up...

There are 2 modes of sailing,
1) Passage mode/ Out with daughter/ non sailing friends, reef early rely on easily driven hull. (Sail to the gusts).
2) A fun day sail: Push her hard (Sail to the lulls) if we did not break anything we did it right.

Did charter holiday with main on coach roof, was unnatural when it sailing in mode no 2 above you really needed 2 of you not one

I guess we have gone for performance over comfort, although people tell us we will grow up oneday

 

[john_morris_uk]

I have an old 3/4 tonner, so I cannot object to the occasional round up...

There are 2 modes of sailing,
1) Passage mode/ Out with daughter/ non sailing friends, reef early rely on easily driven hull. (Sail to the gusts).
2) A fun day sail: Push her hard (Sail to the lulls) if we did not break anything we did it right.

Did charter holiday with main on coach roof, was unnatural when it sailing in mode no 2 above you really needed 2 of you not one

I guess we have gone for performance over comfort, although people tell us we will grow up oneday

Understood - and thats very similar to the way we used to sail our Sigma 33. We even had two mainsails. One was a Dacron sail which was smaller and used for cruising and the other was a laminate which had a larger sail area (and the boom was considerably lower)

I still suspect that your 3/4 tonner has better manners than one or two of the modern boats I have had the ill pleasure of sailing on. An urge to luff up in a gust is reasonable, but having to have the mainsail in hand in order to prevent the boat suddenly tripping up over itself in a gust is a pain in the backside in a boat that is supposed to be a family cruiser.

I don't think its all down to size. We sailed a South Coast One Design (26' LOA) and that never felt anywhere near misbehaving. Even when racing and pressing hard in big gusts she would just lean over and go faster. Of course, when I have been racing in a J24 I wouldn't expect the same experience, but I remember racing a small (23?) Hunter in a cross channel race in heavy weather and the thing 'sort of' behaved itself even when racing. I also appreciate that our current boat is nearly 40' and weighs over 11 tonnes. Even so, reaching for the main sheet in huge gusts only occurs because she is leaning over too much and we want to get her back to a more comfortable level. I remember sailing up the Golf Du Morbihan and being hit by this huge extended gust of wind. (Full sail in perhaps 8 knots to suddenly 25 knots or more for what felt like minutes.) The boat was knocked down and we had water over the side decks further than we had ever seen it, but she didn't misbehave in the way that some boats I have sailed on have. There was certainly none of the uncontrolled rounding up I have experienced in some boats.

Anyway, the OP asked what people do in a gust. I still maintain that there isn't one answer as it depends on several things one of which is the boat! To those who say, 'we ease the main sheet', may I respectfully suggest that this doesn't apply to all circumstances and all boats!

 

[Iain C]

I totally agree that there is no definitive answer here at all, and whoever asked the question is looking at what is happening right now, rather than what might happen, and as such is showing a lack of experience (which is fair enough).

"What do you do in a sudden gust?" Well, how long is a mainsheet? Whenever I sail my cruiser I'm usually in the company of dinghy sailors and we are calling "puff in 10 boatlengths". The last RTIR I did was the windy 2011 one, an it was hilarious on the back side of the Island watching boat after boat spin out. We are not some crack racing crew, and we are on a ploddy 70s cruiser, but it's really not that hard to keep your eyes out the boat, looking at dark water, other boats heeling, dark clouds, rain etc, and to have dropped the traveller and be gently starting to flap (not rag) the main as it hits (assuming we're going roughly upwind). I don't think we've ever needed to touch the genoa.

Sailing a big skiff like an 18 soon teaches you how to deal with excessive power! The boat will be rigged and tuned to be fully powered in the lulls rather than the gusts...in a sudden gust upwind it's a stab on the tiller to keep the height and feather the rig slightly, combined with a controlled "flap" on the main and a corresponding ease on the jib. Downwind, a controlled boat can't capsize on a run, so the golden rule is "keep the boat under the rig". In both cases keep the boat dead flat...and of course the tricky bit is knowing what to do in that death zone around the tight reach/fetch area!

WRT to "max wind to leave harbour in"...another daft question, surely it's all about the forecast rather than what it's doing now?

 

[Robert Wilson]

Last month I was out in 40 knot gusts on a 11.5m boat. Singlehanded with the main sheet on the coachroof and the genoa sheets cleated off. Getting too them in a hurry from the wheel in a hurry ...... Forget it.

The secret is to reef early and luff up or bear away as the conditions dictate.

Sit with the mainsheet or genoa sheets 'in-hand' .......... Impossible.

Well, yes, I accept there are always different problems caused by different rigs, etc., but I now realise that coach-roof mounted travellers/mainsheets would be a big problem for my style of sailing.
I had thought that the traveller/mainsheet out of the way of the cockpit would be a big advantage - changed my mind (safety over comfort).

 

[cdogg]

"WRT to "max wind to leave harbour in"...another daft question, surely it's all about the forecast rather than what it's doing now?[/QUOTE]

"daft question" thank goodness everyone isn't such a smart a**.

Thank you to all the others who took time to reply sensibly.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

To my mind that is unseamanlike design /setup. It is important to be able to free the mainsheet if needed - eg to bear off behind a starboard tack boat. Very few boats will bear off safely in a wind without easing the main.

Which is why I have just had 15 grands worth of damage in the side of my boat repaired !

I have only sailed one Bav30 owned by Yelbis of this forum, and found the coachroof mounted mainsheet very disconcerting. I advised John to take a loose turn in the opposite direction around the winch. It was then possible to give the lazy end of the sheet a tug to release it from the self tailer and avoid rounding up. Some weeks later, he told me he was out single handed in a blow and found himself with the boat on its side because he had forgotten about this! At least he managed to retrieve his dog from the water before it drifted away!

 

[fireball]

Unavoidably eavesdropping on a loud conversation at the next table in our marina restaurant. I heard an argument about what action to take in the event of being hit by a sudden strong gust. Both had strong views on whether to "bear away or head up more into wind"

What would you do?

The conversation also went on to discussing at above what forecast wind strength they would choose not to leave the marina for a pleasure/leisure sail (i.e. no schedule to meet). One of the yachts in question was a Bavaria 30. As this is the same boat I have, I was interested to hear their views - the consensus was that f4 was generally the maximum! Any views?

Cheers

A bav 30 isn't a high performance craft (we have the 37)but has a reasonable form stability.

It's already been said - but I'll repeat..
Wind forward of the beam - luff up - the boat will do this naturally - so just don't fight the weather helm so much.

Wind aft of the beam - bear away - this takes much more effort - but is more preferable to the increased heel you'll get by coming up on the wind.

Like you we don't have easy access to trim the sails - it was a conscious decision to accept this when we bought her and just sail accordingly.
If there are too many gusts then you need to reef!

 

[Jamesuk]

Unavoidably eavesdropping on a loud conversation at the next table in our marina restaurant. I heard an argument about what action to take in the event of being hit by a sudden strong gust. Both had strong views on whether to "bear away or head up more into wind"

What would you do?

The conversation also went on to discussing at above what forecast wind strength they would choose not to leave the marina for a pleasure/leisure sail (i.e. no schedule to meet). One of the yachts in question was a Bavaria 30. As this is the same boat I have, I was interested to hear their views - the consensus was that f4 was generally the maximum! Any views?

Cheers

Put the spinnaker up and ask the same questions " ease and go with the wind" should be your answer. Race an asymmetric dinghy and you will soon get the picture at 20 knots although that was a long time ago. SB20 at cowes week, heading up killed boat speed heeled the boat over and loss of steerage is part of the problem.

 

[pteron]

Mono, cat, tri, dinghy, makes no difference, they all sail in the same wind.

In a gust, unless you are trimmed to take it, you are trying to reduce the power of the wind. If you bear away from close hauled, you go through close reach and beam reach - both much more powerful points of sail. On a cat you are likely to pitchpole, in a mono dinghy, capsize. The correct reaction is to pinch and/or ease the main (or hike more). Big boats don't react differently to the wind - nothing is aware that it has a big sail rather than a little sail. They just react more slowly.

With the wind behind the beam, luffing up again puts you on a beam reach. So you bear away, reducing apparent wind and hence power.

One of the best ways to learn this is on a beach cat with a wind speed that's too high for beam reaching (no reefing). You soon learn to get through the maximum power range as quickly as you can, else you end up swimming.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Mono, cat, tri, dinghy, makes no difference, they all sail in the same wind.

In a gust, unless you are trimmed to take it, you are trying to reduce the power of the wind. If you bear away from close hauled, you go through close reach and beam reach - both much more powerful points of sail. On a cat you are likely to pitchpole, in a mono dinghy, capsize. The correct reaction is to pinch and/or ease the main (or hike more). Big boats don't react differently to the wind - nothing is aware that it has a big sail rather than a little sail. They just react more slowly.

With the wind behind the beam, luffing up again puts you on a beam reach. So you bear away, reducing apparent wind and hence power.

One of the best ways to learn this is on a beach cat with a wind speed that's too high for beam reaching (no reefing). You soon learn to get through the maximum power range as quickly as you can, else you end up swimming.

Please don't let me come sailing on a high performance big cat' or tri' with you!

Might I humbly suggest that beach cats have a habit of burying their leeward sponson and tripping up over them when overpressed which leads to the capsizes you mention.

The wind might be the same, but the way you sort things out in different boats IS NOT the same. Try sailing one of the high performance big Cats or Tri's to find out. What you do in a large Ocean Racer is not the same as what you do in a J24 or a Westerly Centaur.