Best 21-23 foot trailable sailer that dries out upright?

Trailer Sailer

Like so many I would recommend the type I have but that is no help to you as they are made in Melbourne.
Some comments however. The weight of the boat is critical. (not the length) My little boat is 21ft but quite light less than 1 tonne. This makes for great performance in light winds and easy towing but also makes it tender and lively in a seaway and it really suffers when beating into small waves. Light also means a light mast and rig. (fractional) so is easy to raise.
Mine has the vertically lifting keel. So it will float in shallow water 20cms and is therefor easy to winch onto a trailer attached to the car. It will (though not often done) sit on sand fairly stable. The hull bottom is very thick so I would not to worry too much about pounding on the bottom before it is dry. if you worried you could fit runners of wood to take some of the rough treatment.
The vertical lift keel means that it is obtrusive into the cabin and makes access to the forward cabin awkward.
When I bought this boat I lived in Melbourne and had a 40 minute tow to the water through CBD. Rigging was not too much of a time waster for an afternoon sail. You do get organised especially if you set it up correctly. Then a move to the opposite coast and now it lives on a mooring. I would say 30 minutes to get mast down and stowed and boat on the trailer. (no waiting) and a bit longer to rig to sail away. But of course on mooring just a few minutes. In fact one rush was less than15minutes from home deciding to go to hitting the start line for a race. (including walking to the boat launching (Al) dinghy and rowing to boat).
So a mooring is desirable but it is nice to have the option to go to other places and launch and rig just for the occasion. good luck olewill
 
This drying out on sand lark is getting very 'expensive' in terms of loss of boat abilities...

E-Boat; very good in light airs, bottom vulnerable to drying out on nasties, hairy in heavy weather with warnings of broaching & sinking ( yes I've met someone who did the Atlantic in one, but a boat set up for it and an excellent seaman ), diabolical 'interior'. Wide beam to tow.

Hunter Delta; bottom vulnerable to nasties when drying, lightly built, not a windward puncher in heavy stuff but good to sail in light stuff. Large and wide to tow.

Seal 22; crazy cockpit bulkhead gives away space and seaworthiness, won't settle upright on sand, keel mechanism dubious & liable to jamming with stones & mud ( used to be a couple at my club ) fairly good in light airs but not powerful offshore, rather lightly ballasted.

Mirror Offshore; do be serious, the OP wanted a sailing boat !

Liberty; if settling on sand is a must, this seems the best bet so far, character & 'fun' would hopefully outweigh lack of offshore potential...
 
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seumask said:
A little out of your size reqirements we had a Hunter Delta which is 25ft untill recently, vertical lift keel and sits completly flat on its bottom on hard sand. We had a trailer for it and took it home each winter. Fantastic boat IMHO. Well built, easy to manage single handed and suited the family for cosy holidays of up to two weeks each year, even went across the channel in it.
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This stimulated me to look at the Hunter Horizon 23 which I looked at before & read the review in PBO May 2007. Think it might be a bit bigger/chunkier that I need & also quite heavy tow.

Next train of consciousness took me to the Hunter Horizon 21. A bilge keeler (noting previous comments drying out), but finer lines and obviously lighter. Slightly surprised to read from the Association website that only 50 built. Does anyone have experience of this little boat?
 
mrjemm said:
I second the liberty. I was recently very close to going for one, although as you say, the rig is quirky, but I don't think there's any reason to doubt the ruggedness. They've got what may be one of the most sensible set ups for drying out, with their bilge runners.
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From your research, did you get an idea of how long to 'rig' this unstayed rig (cf comments above about Bermudan sloop rigs)?
 
stibbles said:
Next train of consciousness took me to the Hunter Horizon 21. A bilge keeler (noting previous comments drying out), but finer lines and obviously lighter. Slightly surprised to read from the Association website that only 50 built. Does anyone have experience of this little boat?
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No personal experience but lots of anecdotal and reported to the effect that she is an excellent sailing boat, as you would expect of a David Thomas designed Hunter. One of the early H21s "Gemini Hunter" won her class in a Round the Island Race in the 90s. I've been aboard one, the interior is open-plan and very roomy for her size. The hull & deck mouldings are the same as the earlier Hunter Medina which had a vertically lifting keel and a flush bottom so may also suit the OP.
 
That Hunter 21 looks like a nice boat.

I think the Trail Sailer and standing upright parts of your desired spec are working against each other.

The trail sailer will have shallow draught, be light to tow, have a light mast that can be stepped singlehanded quickly, maybe 20-21'.

The drying out without falling over pushes you towards a bilge keel trailerable boat that may take longer to rig/de-rig and is probably more comfy/roomy but heavier, could be 23'.


A few of the TSA have a boat on a mooring all year (or all season) that they take away for a cruise a couple of times a year. These are typicaly 21 to 25' lift keelers towed with a large car or more likely a 4x4.

Keeping a boat at home and having a couple of cruises with a long W/E or 4 mixed in is hard work and you will soon want a mooring, some folk like it though, I did that for 3 years with the First 18 and really enjoyed it. It took 2 hours from pulling up in the car park to sailing away, about the same to recover too.
EDIT this is what you need the trail sailer for.

The Hunter Duet Bilge keel looks a good option.
Jeanneau Tonic and Beneteau 235 only do external lift keels, it's a shame about the drying level bit.
Westerly Warwick bilge keel?
Seal 22, a TSA bloke has one and takes it all over behind a Subaru Legacy.
EDIT, Etap 22i, First 22 or 24, Westerly Jouster (if you can find one for sale :) )
 
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Aquaplane,

your initials wouldn't be D.E, had a Hunter 420 a long time ago, by any chance ?

Stibbles,

Another set-up to be wary of - in my opinion of course - is the 'wing keel with twin rudders'.

Wing keels have proven a bit of a fallacy in themselves, nowhere near the grip to windward of a fin keel, as originally claimed, and very good at collecting weed & flotsam.

The real fly in the ointment is twin rudders though; only necessary on a fat transomed boatwhich lifts a central rudder out of the water, usually to squeeze in an 'aft cabin', with corresponding snags with linkages, wear, tracking etc; and imagine the loads on poor splayed out rudders as she dries out !

Even sand would have to be billiard table smooth and level to dry on the small footprint of keel and rudders, but some people ( presumably with no imagination ) swear by them...:eek:

A pain to get on & off a trailer too...
 
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Seajet said:
Aquaplane,

your initials wouldn't be D.E, had a Hunter 420 a long time ago, by any chance ?
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Naa, never had a Hunter, actually, the Medina and Sonata should already have been mentioned? I'm not sure about the internal lifting keel for a drying mooring though.

Jaguar 21, 22, 23 and even a 25 is trailerable, more contenders, the 22 and 25 both came in lifting and blige keels.
 
Aquaplane,

I was thinking of D.E, was / maybe still is President of TSA, met him long ago in St.Peter Port.

The Jaguar 21 was also available with a lift keel, seem to remember it's a swing job leaving a fair bit outside.

Good boat in light airs, has the outboard in a well which is a major plus, probably quite open plan below, lightish for trailing, maybe not wonderful punching into a blow and probably doesn't settle upright on sand.

The Jaguar 22 lift keelers I've seen should be avoided with a barge pole, so weak in the hull it sags down around the keel bulb !!!
 
I am not certain about rigging time of the Liberty, but it'll be quicker and easier than anything else here! And still noises about it's offshore potential (why doubt it Seajet?)- but one (albeit adapted) has done the Atlantic I read. Some may question the offset companionway.

Best thing to do though, is contact the owner's assoc, they were very friendly and helpful with my enquiries-
http://www.hlmoa.flyer.co.uk/

To be honest, I bought my present boat with an idea of getting one of these also, but project costs piling up at mo, as they do.

The Sonata lift keel is in a fairly deep stub, so doubt it'll sit on a bottom at all happily.
I think the Jaguar 21 keel is a dagger, not a swing, like the 22's.
Dad used to have a Medina, and I loved it. Used to sail it solo a lot. Very fun and simple.
I was also drawn to Fox Terriers, but seem only 2 available when I looked- one fin and one lift, but knackd apparently.
 
mrjemm,

my doubts about the Liberty offshore are down to handling that rig beating into a blow, getting it to set well reefed and still produce enough power to get to windward into seas; I suspect this would require effort to practice, and find out if a storm jib helps & how to set it before getting caught out ( like so many things with boats ).

I do however reckon she's the most suitable boat so far suggested for the OP's criteria.

Of course there is the chance the OP will fly in the face of all our conjecture and have the cheek to decide for himself where his money goes, but that's not playing the game ! :)
 
All of this is beyond me I'm afraid but i just wanted to say that we manage our little Bilge keel without much grief...

Sunspot 15 comes in at under 16ft so obviously a lot smaller but we tow her with a Volvo estate and can launch and rig in an hour....sure, she sits higher on the trailer but we're managing depite being novices. Don't dismiss the Bilge keel for towing....

Good luck.
 
Can see where you're coming from Seajet. You're right though, truly off form to let the OP's decision making to get in way of a good discussion...

I have a feeling the one that went transatlantic was junk rigged, but not sure. But Minstrel same bar rig (gunter I think) if that rig not popular. Not that gunter is exactly conformist.

I know some play with staysails and others had larger rigs replacing the cat.

Talking of cat rigs though, there was a nice looking boat called the Poacher 6.4, but never ever see them any more. Not many in the first place I believe, but made by same folk as the Manta 16/19 I recall.

Talking of cats though (subtle?) there are strider cats, which I also nearly went for, and they certainly sit well on the bottom. And the "Club" version had long low-profile skegs for this purpose. But 24 and 25 foot, not 21-23.
 
mrjemm said:
Talking of cats though (subtle?) there are strider cats, which I also nearly went for, and they certainly sit well on the bottom. And the "Club" version had long low-profile skegs for this purpose. But 24 and 25 foot, not 21-23.
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If you are talking about multi hulls, forget 2, what you want is an F27 tri

http://windcraft.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=78&Itemid=107

That's getting a bit away from where we started but it may actually fit the bill better than lots of the compromises mentioned previously. :)
 
mrjemm,

I remember the Poacher, now you mention it they do seem to have disappeared.

I suppose there's the Freedom 21 too, can't say I was a fan, mainly I think I seem to remember it was silly money when new, for not much boat ? May be worth considering by the OP now, not too sure what's underwater from memory, all I really remember is the spin pole gun-mount.

A Strider would certainly get places in a hurry, one may have aged more than somewhat in the process though ! I've never been a multihull fan since I had a Dart 18 for a season, went like an Exocet but no sensation of speed, and no feel at all on the tiller, just a machine; a fragile one too !

A Strider would probably stand settling on sand ( for a while ) but towing may get awkward.

It wouldn't surprise me if after all this conjecture Stibbles goes for a fin keel J24 or something !
 
Seajet said:
I suppose there's the Freedom 21 too, can't say I was a fan, mainly I think I seem to remember it was silly money when new, for not much boat ?
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There was one for sale at Brighton recently for reasonable money. I thought it looked like a lot of fun. it was described as "shoal keel" though I've no idea what form it took.
 
stibbles said:
And launching-wise (most regularly at least) I'd ideally like it to be at the ramp at Gibraltar Point/(Skegness Yacht Club, I think). A great spot IMHO. I've no experience with the ramp, though. Like I've said, not something I'd be planning to do too often.
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The reason I asked is because there are very few options available 'to get you in' around this area ....
So, the vehicle doesn't matter too much then, as long as it gets you to the site - for as you probably know there's a manual recovery winch available at Gib Point. A beautiful site. You'll need a dunkable trailer of course (or a piggy-back trailer-trolley arrangement).

If you'd been planning to launch on the River Welland, on the landward side of Fosdyke Bridge, then you'd need something fairly meaty for recovery if the boat weights anything at all, as there ain't no winch, but plenty of mud to slide around on ! You'd also need a drop-down mast, as you'd be on the 'wrong' side of the bridge. There's also nowhere to hold the boat while you clamber aboard, so imho you're restricted to launching open boats from that slip, and even then it can be pretty hairy/messy ('cause of the mud).

There's always Fosdyke Marina of course - just across the road - if you need a controlled launch with the mast up - you could launch pretty much any boat from there, with any trailer set-up, as they have a launch gantry gizmo - but it costs.

It might be worth checking with the Skegness guys to enquire how much water is available at neaps, as this may pose restrictions on what keel depth can be launched - it's only a creek, after all.
 
Freedom 21 had twin lifting keels with winged bulbs! I heard they didn't lock down. Also fins and wings. Proportionally large cockpit and mast base made interior tiny seemingly. Always seems like big fully battened main difficult to be smooth with. Ungainly.

As for darts. Just happen to know of a 16 for sale, ahem...
 
mrjemm said:
I am not certain about rigging time of the Liberty, but it'll be quicker and easier than anything else here! And still noises about it's offshore potential (why doubt it Seajet?)- but one (albeit adapted) has done the Atlantic I read. Some may question the offset companionway.

Best thing to do though, is contact the owner's assoc, they were very friendly and helpful with my enquiries-
http://www.hlmoa.flyer.co.uk/

To be honest, I bought my present boat with an idea of getting one of these also, but project costs piling up at mo, as they do.

The Sonata lift keel is in a fairly deep stub, so doubt it'll sit on a bottom at all happily.
I think the Jaguar 21 keel is a dagger, not a swing, like the 22's.
Dad used to have a Medina, and I loved it. Used to sail it solo a lot. Very fun and simple.
I was also drawn to Fox Terriers, but seem only 2 available when I looked- one fin and one lift, but knackd apparently.
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Thank you, yes, I made made contact with HLMOA, including Sandra Cats.

A lot of things I like, but two things put me off a Liberty:

1) Them being 3 berth not 4 (to allow for a big heads compartment)

2) The main mast, although it folds easily, folds onto the mainsheet rail meaning (apart from the potential wear on the rail) that the mast lies not horizontal, but such that the aft end is approx 8ft off the ground when down, or so I'm told. This seems a shame to me as if flat you could presumably even shoot bridges quite easily (admittedly a different use than I've previously described)
 
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