Berths Mediteranean

[Bouba]

I bought a 30 year lease on a 12m (waterline length) which costs me the equivalent of 830 euros a year plus service charge. I paid 25000 euros. Port St.Cyprien, Pyrenees-Orientales, France. I've had it for 5 years and the bloke next door has just sold the remaining 22 years of his lease for 23000 euros after being there for 8 years ... all looks good to me!

I used to like you!
I have a place in a port that’s not a port, it’s a river. It is in actual fact a working shipyard without any shops restaurants or foot traffic. It goes for €45k for five years. The worst bit is that because it’s a river it is dangerous to use in winter, so it’s only good for six months per year. I don’t even live in the posh end of the CdA

 

[julians]

I used to like you!
I have a place in a port that’s not a port, it’s a river. It is in actual fact a working shipyard without any shops restaurants or foot traffic. It goes for €45k for five years. The worst bit is that because it’s a river it is dangerous to use in winter, so it’s only good for six months per year. I don’t even live in the posh end of the CdA

Ditto, that (in St cyprien) is cheap, as is St Carles, I just (in 2018) paid 40000 euros for a 20 year lease on a 7m mooring in port adriano in mallorca.

 

[Portofino]

duplicate .

 

[Portofino]

There have been enough restaurants in Sant Carles to keep us happy for the last 14 years.
Even during the lock downs.
I was out there last week having helped deliver a boat from Cala d'Or in Mallorca.
I know it is strange times but there were actually more restaurants open in Sant Carles that in Cala d'Or.
Plenty to choose from as well - SC is located at the mouth of the River Ebro on the Ebro Delta - where all the Spanish rice is grown for their Paellas.
The Delta forms a massive lagoon just outside Sant Carles Marina so lots of fresh seafood - some grown in the lagoon.
The lagoon is about 7 liles long by a mile and a half wide and 6m deep.
Good holding throughout the lagoon.
Inside the lagoon you are protected from the open sea so there aren't many days when you can't just pop out and drop the hook.
For kids, the lagoon is a paradise for water toys - water skiing etc.
There are even a few restaurants (on stilts) in the lagoon.
The marina has its own swimming pool and the scenery is not typically Spanish. The town being located behind a small mountain range (The Montsia).
These pics taken last week in the lagoon - you can see the Montsia and town are in the background.
And notice that there was hardly a ripple.

View attachment 95949

This is the new boat (to our marina) that we collected last week.

View attachment 95950

10 secs after that last one we got swamped.
I hope that the new owner doesn't mind me posting the pics.
I was in my tender - just after taking these pics, I returned to the marina - the new owners popped over to a favourite anchorage and had a quick swim before returning the boat to its new home berth.

Did this boat reach the moon , looks like it’s trying to usurp NASA ?

 

[Truro Ex Pat]

I actually stayed in Benalmadena for a year and rented without a problem. It is only busy in July and August and then very quiet for the rest of the year.

There are lots of different options and many different reasons why you choose a location, with children I would go for a resort type place as it gives more options for the kids as we have done.

Places like Sant Carles is fine if just want a cheap marina and also a distance from the airport as well, along with limited choice of cursing places in addition to this.

We did Mallorca for a few years and this will give the best options, but will come at a price.

You could stay on mainland and then travel across each year which will save you some money and then you can look at Denia and the Spanish coast as it offers great links to airport and Mallorca's causing areas. Its not a full on resort but it is a very nice place and has 3 marinas so costs are relatively low.

 

[Andy Bav]

Places like Sant Carles is fine if just want a cheap marina and also a distance from the airport as well, along with limited choice of cursing places in addition to this.

You've seen me trying to get in when there is a cross wind then ?

 

[Foxboater]

Hi, Do we think with BREXIT there will be any tax changes with UK registered boats on the Mediterranean? i.e having to pay extra tax to keep the boat on the med or??
As I'm wondering if I should wait before I lift the boat from UK-Spain or maybe I'm overthinking it and all will remain the same? Thank you

 

[Hurricane]

Hi, Do we think with BREXIT there will be any tax changes with UK registered boats on the Mediterranean? i.e having to pay extra tax to keep the boat on the med or??
As I'm wondering if I should wait before I lift the boat from UK-Spain or maybe I'm overthinking it and all will remain the same? Thank you

I don't think there will be any extra ordinary taxes to pay.
But, IMO, there are two things to consider and in your case the second point leads to a third.
I stand to be corrected on any these points

Point 1 - The big one - You
Freedom of travel is currently under discussion so this may change.
At the moment, I think you can travel back and forth as much as you like.
If there is no deal, the default situation is that you can only visit for 90 days in any 180 days.
This applies to non European citizens now.
This may all change but, personally, I believe that the Spanish will turn a "blind eye" to people like us who are, really just tourists.
i.e - not living in their country and spending our money there.

Point 2 - The boat
A boat is considered "a good" and as such any "good" inside Europe has to have either been imported into Europe (and had import taxes paid) or been supplied/built within Europe.
If supplied within Europe to a private individual, then VAT will have been paid but this is not a VAT issue.
So, after Brexit, the UK is no longer inside Europe but boats already in Europe will (I believe) keep their European "goods" status.
So the boat can stay as long as it likes - unless it moves away from EU waters for more than 3 years - then it would need to be re-imported (as has always been the case).
This is completely different to you an individual visiting the boat - see Point 1
As I understand it, if you take your boat from a non European country to a European country, it will need to be "imported" into Europe and have import taxes paid.
Even if it is VAT paid - I believe that VAT isn't the issue here - I believe that it is the action of importing that is the point.
There is, however a period (of 18 months - I think - TA rules) that allows any good to stay in Europe before triggering an import.
This is to cover people touring with caravans and cars etc - their goods are not subject to import for that period.
A lot of us with boats in Europe have completed a T2L certificate that proves that our boats are already European goods.
I don't think it matters that we, as owners, are in the EU or not - our boats are EU goods.
Our T2L certificates were validated by HMRC whilst HMRC was/is still entitled to do so as a member state.
I believe that this T2l certificate is part of the paperwork that you would get if you imported your boat (good) into the EU.
So, IMO, our boats that are already in Europe wont be affected by Brexit.

Point 3 - Your case - leads on from Point 2
You are considering moving your boat after Brexit so there are a few questions that we don't know the answers to.
Firstly, for this "goods" (Point 2) issue - has Brexit actually happened yet - I suspect not - we are still trading as before so IMO, all import rules are as before.
In other words is the "cut off" date was not last Jan but will be the 31st Dec 2020
I suspect that if you move your boat to an EU country now, there will be no issue.
It would be interesting to see if HMRC will still stamp (validate) a T2L
Secondly, will there be a deal? - who knows.
Thirdly, there is always the TA (18 month) rule.
Where you can take your boat into Europe after a no deal Brexit and have 18 months to think about what to do
And, finally, I don't think that countries like Spain can afford to follow these importation rules so, I think a lot of this will be ignored (or worked around)

So, IMO, what should you do.
I think you should make sure that your boat is in Europe on the 31st December 2020.
Even if it is just in a French port the other side of the channel on that date.
A marina berthing invoice would prove that point.
Better still take the boat out to Spain now
If you use a road transport (Coast 2 Coast for example) you will have an invoice confirming that the boat was transported to the EU before 31st Dec
Of course all this changes if a deal is struck but it might be prudent to move the boat now whilst there is no implication of import.

Hope that helps but, as I say - it is only as I see it.
It would be interesting to hear if other people agree with my thoughts.

 

[Portofino]

Only point 1 .Visas cumbersome as they are might get around the 90 in 180 or what ever time restrictions that technically will apply.
Works Both ways .Eg currently there are 500K Fr working in London on current rules ...FoM .

I can see much to Barniers angst a few , Infact several special case rules made up for the U.K. post Brexit .Reciprocal of course .
A sort of ex club set .So the U.K. gets different treatment to genuine 3 P states .

But that’s stepping down the famous road of “ getting you cake and eating it “ as opposed to him saying the contrary .
He keeps telling us we “can’t have our cake and eat it“ .

In which case we will be an “independent coastal state “ .....fine .We accept the 90 in 180 without a visa or more with .

But he wants to maintain the current fishing rights in our water for the EU .

The problem withthe visa thing ..is CRB and other naughty behaviour might be churned up , should be .
So ( doubt many on here Tbo ) but a lot of the Marbella set , with hidden U.K. pasts might have a problem getting the Sp embassy to rubber stamp a extended visit .
Currently a wanted or suspected dodgy person can just rock up on the Costas , set up a business and go .
That might change post Brexit .

 

[Foxboater]

I don't think there will be any extra ordinary taxes to pay.
But, IMO, there are two things to consider and in your case the second point leads to a third.
I stand to be corrected on any these points

Point 1 - The big one - You
Freedom of travel is currently under discussion so this may change.
At the moment, I think you can travel back and forth as much as you like.
If there is no deal, the default situation is that you can only visit for 90 days in any 180 days.
This applies to non European citizens now.
This may all change but, personally, I believe that the Spanish will turn a "blind eye" to people like us who are, really just tourists.
i.e - not living in their country and spending our money there.

Point 2 - The boat
A boat is considered "a good" and as such any "good" inside Europe has to have either been imported into Europe (and had import taxes paid) or been supplied/built within Europe.
If supplied within Europe to a private individual, then VAT will have been paid but this is not a VAT issue.
So, after Brexit, the UK is no longer inside Europe but boats already in Europe will (I believe) keep their European "goods" status.
So the boat can stay as long as it likes - unless it moves away from EU waters for more than 3 years - then it would need to be re-imported (as has always been the case).
This is completely different to you an individual visiting the boat - see Point 1
As I understand it, if you take your boat from a non European country to a European country, it will need to be "imported" into Europe and have import taxes paid.
Even if it is VAT paid - I believe that VAT isn't the issue here - I believe that it is the action of importing that is the point.
There is, however a period (of 18 months - I think - TA rules) that allows any good to stay in Europe before triggering an import.
This is to cover people touring with caravans and cars etc - their goods are not subject to import for that period.
A lot of us with boats in Europe have completed a T2L certificate that proves that our boats are already European goods.
I don't think it matters that we, as owners, are in the EU or not - our boats are EU goods.
Our T2L certificates were validated by HMRC whilst HMRC was/is still entitled to do so as a member state.
I believe that this T2l certificate is part of the paperwork that you would get if you imported your boat (good) into the EU.
So, IMO, our boats that are already in Europe wont be affected by Brexit.

Point 3 - Your case - leads on from Point 2
You are considering moving your boat after Brexit so there are a few questions that we don't know the answers to.
Firstly, for this "goods" (Point 2) issue - has Brexit actually happened yet - I suspect not - we are still trading as before so IMO, all import rules are as before.
In other words is the "cut off" date was not last Jan but will be the 31st Dec 2020
I suspect that if you move your boat to an EU country now, there will be no issue.
It would be interesting to see if HMRC will still stamp (validate) a T2L
Secondly, will there be a deal? - who knows.
Thirdly, there is always the TA (18 month) rule.
Where you can take your boat into Europe after a no deal Brexit and have 18 months to think about what to do
And, finally, I don't think that countries like Spain can afford to follow these importation rules so, I think a lot of this will be ignored (or worked around)

So, IMO, what should you do.
I think you should make sure that your boat is in Europe on the 31st December 2020.
Even if it is just in a French port the other side of the channel on that date.
A marina berthing invoice would prove that point.
Better still take the boat out to Spain now
If you use a road transport (Coast 2 Coast for example) you will have an invoice confirming that the boat was transported to the EU before 31st Dec
Of course all this changes if a deal is struck but it might be prudent to move the boat now whilst there is no implication of import.

Hope that helps but, as I say - it is only as I see it.
It would be interesting to hear if other people agree with my thoughts.

Thank you very much for the advice, I appreciate the time taken in writing the response, thanks again