Bent Sheep and Bo Derek

[jimi]

... I mean sheets bends and bowlines

... just discovered that you can have a right and left sheet bend, where the correct way is with both loose ends on the same side, now I've discovered this I can't for the life of me work out if I've been doing it right or wrong for the last 25 years!!

Same with the bowline, loose end in or outside!

Must admit I never realised and certainly with the bowline am not sure of the significance!
Any bondage experts there that could unleash theit knowledge?



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[kingfisher]

Correct bowline

Loose end outside, length of loose end equal to size of loop

Sheet bend: loose ends on same side will allow seizing around both loose ends to secure the knot.

<hr width=100% size=1>Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com

 

[bigmart]

Re: Correct bowline

Now I've always been under the impression that the loose end of a Bowline had to be on the inside. As to your assertions regarding the Sheet Bend they sound logical so I will bow to your superior knowledge there.

I think this has the makings of a massive post. Huge arguments as to that rights & wrongs of each Knot even though they all work perfectly well however you tie them. What fun.

Martin

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[Jacket]

Re: Correct bowline

I was once told that having the loose end of the bowline on the outside is the British method, while having it on the inside is the American way. Or maybe its the other way round. but apparently it makes no difference to the strength of the knot.

If you tie a bowline with the one handed method, the loose end naturally ends up on the inside.

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[Cornishman]

Re: Correct bowline

Any MN officer cadet offering a bowline with the end on the outside would have failed his Efficient Deckhand exam straightaway. Some Examiners would not even have proceeded further with the examination! See The Efficient Deckhand, A Guide to DoT Examinations by Capt C H Wright p 135 The many variations on the bowline such as on the bight, running bowline etc might be difficult unless tied properly.
My knot tying hero, Clifford W Ashley does not even show a bowline with the end outside.

Ashley has a long discussion on the sheet bend versus the left handed sheet bend and comes to the conclusion that there is not much to choose between them as far as strength is concerned.

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[l'escargot]

Earliest reference I can find is (RN) Manual of Seamanship 1908. This shows loose end on the inside of bowline and both ends on the same side for the sheet bend.

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[iangrant]

Re: Correct bowline

This is a bit of fun

http://www.mistral.co.uk/42brghtn/knots/42ktmenu.html

Ian

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[Twister_Ken]

Ever since my rabbit first came out of its hole, my bowlines have been 'insiders'

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[Twister_Ken]

Brighton Boys Scouts...

...apart from being prepared, say:

"The Sheetbend is commonly used to tie two ropes of unequal thickness together. The thicker rope of the two is used to form a bight, and the thinner rope is passed up through the bight, around the back of the bight, and then tucked under itself.

The knot should be tied with both ends coming off the same side of the bend, as illustrated here. However it can easily be accidentally tied with the ends coming off opposite sides of the bend, when it is known as the Left Handed Sheet Bend. The Left Handed Sheet Bend is to be avoided as it is less secure"

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[jimi]

Re: Brighton Boys Scouts...

I think the Brighton boys have been playing with themselves .. I cannot see that right or left handed makes any difference for the knots' strength! Only difference I can see is that perhaps the bowline with the loose end on the inside may be more prone to locking solid when a lot of strain is put on it!

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[iangrant]

Re: Brighton Boys Scouts...

Jim,
I've posted the scouts site at the bottom, but here it is again
http://www.mistral.co.uk/42brghtn/knots/42ktmenu.html

You can have a look at a ging gang gooley or two

ian

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[qsiv]

Re: Correct bowline

My Old Man (a product of the Conway) insisted the same - and told me that mountaineers conventionally tie them 'tail outside'.

What I do like from the mountaineering fraternity is their style of flaking a rope os it will run freely with no snarls - I've never come across anything nautical that works as well. I believe it was also the climbers who started coiling multiplait lines in igures of eight to avoid kinks - it looks odd to someone brought op on stranded ropes - but it does work.

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[peterb]

The same discussion has been going on on the BYM forum (rare to have a sailing associated item there, but is does sometimes happen).

I once had the bowline argument with the some members of the Dutch navy. Apparently they expect the tail of the knot to be outside the loop (because its stronger). So does the German navy (following similar arguments with them). The British Royal Navy's bowline has the tail on the inside of the loop (because its stronger). So does the US navy, according to the Manual of Seamanship for the United States Naval Academy.

Arguments like this can't really be decided by discussion; they need scientific experiment. I thought I would try to find out which really was the stronger

Using a tensile testing machine on over 50 samples we found that the RN's method appeared to have an average breaking stress about 1% higher than the Dutch method. However, the variability between samples meant that this small difference was probably not significant.

More significant was the drop in strength produced by tying any bowline. We found that the drop depended on the stretchiness of the rope; the more stretchy the less the loss of strength. Ordinary polyester ropes (as commonly used for sheets) lost about 40% of their strength. Nylon lost about 30% and Kevlar about 60%.

So I haven't really settled the argument. On strength grounds the two knots are pretty well identical. The only real difference is in their abilities to snag on rigging, etc. Again both sides seem to argue that there metod doesn't snag but that the other one does. That's a much more difficult argument to settle (no one makes a 'snag testing machine'). My experience of trying both methods is that they both snag, but that when they do it is on the body of the knot and not on the loose tail. Honours still even and the jury's still out.



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[Cornishman]

Did your experiment reveal the same extraordinary result as a similar one conducted by Ashley on the sheet bends, left and right? (The Ashley Book of Knots, p 17)
He discovered that the rope invariably parted just outside the entrance to the knot, giving the lie to the saying that the knot is weaker than the rope in which it is tied. Since the rope virtually never breaks within the knot this cannot be true.

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[Gunfleet]

Re: Correct bowline

By chance I have always tied a bowline in the way you say. But <Some Examiners would not even have proceeded further with the examination!> tells you all you need to know about the kind of crap people were subjected to up until the late 60s and why the pendulum has swung too far now (IMHO). PS Ashley's my hero too!

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[Cornishman]

Re: Correct bowline

Thanks, but I'm not THAT old! I was talking about the 1980s.

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[Jacket]

Yes, but its still the knot thats weakening the rope. The reduction in strength is due to the rope being 'pinched' by the knot. the rope immediately adjacent to the knot is pinched,and so weakened. The rope within the knot is also weakened in a similar way, put is then strengthened slightly by friction confinement between it and adjacent parts of the knot. So the rope just outside the knot becomes the weakest part.

The bit that surprised me is that streatchier rope is weakened less. Anyone got any ideas why?

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[Gunfleet]

Re: Correct bowline

Stop picking nits. You know very well I was referring to the changes in the world between the 1960s and now. I have no idea of your age but would guess... er 140? ;-)

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[Guest]

Re: Correct bowline

Pardon, but I thought ALL Cornishmen were THAT old. I can say this, because I'm in my mid-50's (plus VAT, of course), and I write from sunny Devon, both of which may affect my viewpoint.

P.S - It's still raining hard here, very windy and roads flooding this morning. Just been down to the boatyard where they are trying to launch two 8m cats by crane! Funny business, this sailing.

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[fluffc]

Re: Brighton Boys Scouts...

I would confer this. A Sheet Bend has certain similar characteristics to a Reef Knot. If you tie a reef knot in this manner (tails on opposite sides) (ie. a thief knot), it is not particularaly secure and comes apart under load.

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